Here is a thread started over at the Sober Recovery forum titled “Where would I be without AA”. As I write this, it is an active thread, so we might be adding updates on this for a period of time. This is an interesting conversation to look at, because it contains a number of cult red flags.
It starts out with this post from “24hoursaday”:
i wonder from time to time.. but.. for myself i know the answer.. i would be dead and gone! sometimes when i see the court ordered folks come in and say how they have tried to stay sober in A.A. and failed.. i almost feel sorry for them.. but.. we all have our chances. i like my sponsor’s sponsor’s line.. “it’s pretty hard to pour a drink into a cup full of gratitude”
“i almost feel sorry for them”, she writes. Not quite, but almost. Although she isn’t compassionate towards them, she is grateful that they aren’t her, and she expresses this with a thought stopping slogan from her sponsor – “it’s pretty hard to pour a drink into a cup full of gratitude”.
Next, we get a couple of posts of emoticons (AAs love emoticons, by the way). Then we have “Pinkcuda” come in with this:
if it wasn’t for AA, where would we be driven to by this lash? I presume it would be to either the gates of insanity or death.
And TTOSBT writes:
Without AA?
It is doubtful I would be sober.
But I definitely would not have the peace and serenity I have today. And the friends, and the fun and, and….we could increase the list ad infinitum.
And this from “Justanothrdrunk”:
BEST case scenario without AA –
Drunk
SpouselessPossibly-
Homeless
JoblessOr worse.
I KNOW, deep down in my heart, that if I pick up another drink (even just one), at a minimum I lose 4 years of my life. That’s a minimum, best case…
See a trend here? None of these people are praising sobriety, or patting themselves on the back for mustering the fortitude to quit drinking. They also aren’t praising others within the group for helping them quit drinking. All thanks go to AA. Without AA they would all be either dead, or dying. Not drunk, but dead.
Emimily continues:
check one of three places –
1) jails
2) institutions
3) the great beyondmmm, recovery!
(plus i’m about 1000 times cuter sober… holla!
And nelco:
Don’t know but dread to think…..
Thank God for A.A
And bballdad
6 foot under pushing up daisys
Emimily,you are definitely cuter sober…
Next, McGowdog writes:
I don’t know. I don’t want to speak for everybody.
Even in AA, I had a hard time. It took me from 1984 (age 18) till 1993 (27) to just pull my AA book out for a second time and go “back” to a meeting. Then it took me another 10 years to get and stay in… and not let all those hours and hours and cups of coffee go to waste.
He tried AA and failed for about 20 years. Maybe he wasn’t ready to quit. Who knows. I won’t blame his failure on AA, just as I won’t credit them for his eventual success. Both were his own making. He continues:
I think I’m a hard case. I think there are some in AA who get and stay sober just going to meetings. Let’s just be hypothetical and say some of those aren’t even alcoholics. But they are something, and AA gives them a better way of life, even if others disagree or make fun of them. And they do. I never will again, because I better understand them. We can coexist because they don’t need to do exactly what I do and vise versa.
This guy is stepping out on a limb and saying that he believes some people become sober in AA by simply going to meetings, and not doing the steps. Next he writes, “Let’s just be hypothetical and say some of those aren’t even alcoholics. But they are something, and AA gives them a better way of life, even if others disagree or make fun of them. And they do.” There is a subtext here that those who know AA will understand. The common belief is that those who remain sober without doing the steps are not really alcoholics or dry drunks. Those who just go meetings and fail are held up as evidence that the steps are necessary. He writes that people “make fun of them”, by which I think he means they trivialize them. AA says “these are just ‘suggestions'”, but those who don’t do the steps are marginalized. He continues:
But I think I’d be dead if not for AA because I’ve met and need to stay around a few maddogs that do what I do.
That is what I truely believe out of my experience.
Let’s not stop at the mere program/recovery work in AA. What about the OTHER 12 spiritual principles we use that will hopefully “set the example” to that serene world out there… the 12 Traditions! It’s an upside down pyramid where power belongs to the people. What an awesome concept and how awesome it works. Do people want to pick us apart and tear us down? Who cares? By our own traditions, we don’t have to fight them (Ghandi) and because we don’t give or take money, they can’t tell us what to do and we can’t tell them what to do. Then there’s the 12 Concepts that takes like a lawyer or a PhD to figure out… but it’s another 12 Principles that can be used positively in the world. I wish some folks would chime in on their experience or observations of the 12 Concepts… in a practical experiential way.
He writes – “Do people want to pick us apart and tear us down? Who cares? By our own traditions, we don’t have to fight them (Ghandi) and because we don’t give or take money, they can’t tell us what to do and we can’t tell them what to do.”
AAs are keen on saying that they don’t accept outside contributions as a reason to do as they please without criticism, somehow implying that they are a benign organization with no financial impact on me or you. Let me quickly dispel this myth. AA uses our court systems to attract to members, under the pretense that the offenders will be helped to overcome their addictions. They are not helped, and are in fact are often looked down upon (read the first post is this thread – “I almost feel sorry for them”), and used as an excuse among AA defenders as a reason for the 95% failure rate. “Most court ordered attendees don’t want to be there, so they increase the percentage of failures” is the standard line. If they don’t want to be there, why would AA accept them? It actually goes against their tradition of accepting as members “anyone with a desire to quit drinking”. AA actually helps to facilitate the revolving door of habitual drunk drivers, because these court appointed AAs wind up where they began. This costs you and me in tax dollars. Treatment centres who use twelve step facilitation (90% of all rehab centres), use AA as their aftercare programs. The high failure rate of AA translates into multiple relapses, paid for by insurance. Our insurance premiums go up because of their reliance on a Higher Power® and faith healing to fix a physiological ailment. Don’t think for a minute AA does not cost you because they pass around a collection plate.
Next, Jim chimes in with the best post in the thread. This one is deserving of 12-Step AAll-Star nomination:
“I think there are some in AA who get and stay sober just going to meetings.”
Last night myself and another member of my group took a meeting into one of the local detoxes. There were actually a couple of alcoholics in there. Usually it is all addicts. If that is the case, we tell them we are there as members of Alcoholics Anonymous, ask if there is anyone there who has a history of alcoholism. If so, we stay. If not we urge them to seek the fellowship that best addresses their problem and then leave.
We run the meeting as a panel, with each of us getting about fifteen minutes to share our combined knowledge and experience. After that, we open the floor up to questions.
One of the patients was a forty-three year old woman in bad shape. She asked me why AA didn’t work for her. So I asked the usual 12th-Step call questions and what I got from her that she had been attempting sobriety for years by simply attending meetings. She had believed the “meeting makers make it” crowd, and it hadn’t worked. We explained to her that sitting in meetings usually doesn’t produce any lasting sobriety for the true alcoholic and then outlined the program of action. Then we asked her if she truly wanted to stop drinking and if she wanted what AA truly has to offer, a life way beyond abstinence. She said yes to both questions, so we took her contact information and passed it on to a woman from our group who will contact her when she is released early next week.
We often talk about dying of alcoholism. Well, this woman is an example of an alcoholic dying of AA, or at least dying of the mythology that is spread in AA.
Jim
“She had believed the “meeting makers make it” crowd, and it hadn’t worked. We explained to her that sitting in meetings usually doesn’t produce any lasting sobriety for the true alcoholic and then outlined the program of action.”
This is an example of someone who has been deceived by AA. There comes a point in every person’s time at AA when they are told that the “take what you want and leave the rest” line in bullshit, and this is her time. Jim explains to her that in order to really get sober, she must work the steps. He even mocks those who just go meetings by calling them the “‘meeting makers make it’ crowd”. AAs don’t really believe that the steps are merely suggestions. That is just a bait and switch tactic. It is kind of like going to a “business meeting” set up by a friend, only to get there and find out he is trying to recruit you into Amway.
So, he tells her that “take what you want and leave the rest” is bullshit, and then goes in for the close:
Then we asked her if she truly wanted to stop drinking and if she wanted. She said yes to both questions, so we took her contact information and passed it on to a woman from our group who will contact her when she is released early next week.
And a cult member has been born. Notice the words “what AA truly has to offer, a life way beyond abstinence”. What AA truly offers is not sobriety. It is cult religion. It may take some more programming, but Jim did a fine job of laying the foundation for more brainwashing. AA has the bonus of not having to starve people or deprive them of sleep. They are already so messed up by alcohol when they get there, they are willing to try anything.
Nice job, Jim. Next we have McGowdog, who writes:
True Jim. Sounds like a solid approach. It sounds tedious, but solid.
I, on the other hand, go to these meetings as a lone wolf, am quiet until I get a chance to share my current ES&H, and go have a little talk with someone after the meeting. Sometimes, other recovered alkies are at the meeting with me. But we are under the understanding that we do AA and they may/may not.
But Jim, as bad as most of our AA meetings are for those that “AA doesn’t work for”, I think I plotted out a way to go to strong meetings and those other meetings don’t seem to do me any harm, so long as I’m clear on why I’m there and why they are there.
Would you agree?
McGowdog congratulates Jim on his bait and switch recruiting tactics, and goes into some other nonsense. What I want to point out is how he puts “AA doesn’t work for” in quotes. The subtext here is that those people don’t really work AA. AA didn’t really fail. They fail AA. They can’t fathom the idea of AA failing.
Now we have more people would surely be dead without AA:
“If I hadn’t had those who went ahead of me to show me and push me down the path and had there not been men and women in meetings that proved to me that one could get sober and stay that way, I never would have quit and I would have died at least 9 years ago.”
“without the program of action – dead, no question”
“I would either be wishing I were or I would be dead”
Makes it kind of tough to leave a group if you are going to die, huh? Seven out fifteen posters said they believed they will die if they leave AA. Others believe that their world will collapse somehow. Sure, you are free to leave AA at any time. But it isn’t really a choice, is it? Poor, delusional, bastards.
Stinkin' Thinkin' 
May 10, 2009 at 12:03 pm
[…] thread on this site. This is rather strange. It’s like y’all are movie stars or something… “Where would I be without AA?” The Wackos at the Sober Recovery Forum Stinkin Thinkin __________________ "What seemed at first a flimsy reed, has proved to be the loving and […]
May 10, 2009 at 12:24 pm
The blind leading the blind. And, they are there because they want to be there. It is a cloister for them. Nice and safe.
Telling them that the clothes have no emperor is futile. Perhaps a few may listen, when they realize that life has gone in a poor direction for them. For now, though, they are where they want ot be.
May 10, 2009 at 1:17 pm
Thanks man. I always wanted to be a star.
May 10, 2009 at 2:53 pm
You bet, Jim. And thank you for doing what you do!
May 11, 2009 at 2:58 pm
What’s up, MA?
Glad we could be of service to you.
If you haven’t noticed, I am pro-AA. I do think there’s a difference between actually working the steps and just paying lip service to it. I can’t describe in words why that is other than… I’ve just seen the results in it and it’s helped people get back on their feet and get lives again. Some people are too lazy and are socialized in AA.
What’s so hard to believe about that? Oh, and tell me how AA works in affiliation with the courts? Does AA demand the judge to send potential alkies to AA or does AA put the finger on them to do so?
May 11, 2009 at 3:15 pm
MA writes: “The common belief is that those who remain sober without doing the steps are not really alcoholics or dry drunks. Those who just go meetings and fail are held up as evidence that the steps are necessary. He writes that people “make fun of them”, by which I think he means they trivialize them. AA says “these are just ’suggestions’”, but those who don’t do the steps are marginalized.”
Why on earth would I care if an alky like me finds another way to get and stay sober? If I found out I could go and read hook’d on fonsoberiks, rather than going to a meeting or two a week and drinking bad coffee, don’t you think I might want to try it too? I’m a do-it-your-selfer, buddy.
Those who are in AA AND don’t work steps, yes, that IS suspect to me. Because eventually, I get cynical about it like some of you folks here do, and I decide it’s cool to drink again. And that ain’t too cool for me. I haven’t had a DUI in 23 years. Has AA done nothing for me? Or should I give the credit to myself?
Are we having an argument about humility and Faith here? What do you care if I believe in and have experience in the fact that AA has showed me a path to God? Yes, God? Not Hitler.
And what’s up with all this BS about cult? If AA was a cult, people’s lives would get worse, not better. There’d be some recipient of our labors and … not exactly sure what’s going on at World Services, but I think they’re helping AA around the world. Our group doesn’t personally donate to them.
So why don’t you get a life for yourself? Whom are you helping? Are you jealous of AA? Do you have some Faith based program that costs less than $1.00 per meeting? Is AA ripping people off? I don’t get what you’re after. Maybe you can do something useful. Work with lepers or something. Either way, you need a hobby.
May 11, 2009 at 3:20 pm
MA Writes: “McGowdog congratulates Jim on his bait and switch recruiting tactics, and goes into some other nonsense. What I want to point out is how he puts “AA doesn’t work for” in quotes. The subtext here is that those people don’t really work AA. AA didn’t really fail. They fail AA. They can’t fathom the idea of AA failing.”
Yeah, and you can’t fathom the idea of AA working.
May 11, 2009 at 3:22 pm
MA writes: “He writes – “Do people want to pick us apart and tear us down? Who cares? By our own traditions, we don’t have to fight them (Ghandi) and because we don’t give or take money, they can’t tell us what to do and we can’t tell them what to do.”
AAs are keen on saying that they don’t accept outside contributions as a reason to do as they please without criticism, somehow implying that they are a benign organization with no financial impact on me or you. Let me quickly dispel this myth. ”
Not even close, buddy. It’s a fact, not a myth.
It’s true. AA takes no money from you or anybody else, and they don’t give money to nobody else. AA don’t need you and you don’t need it. They myth is in your underwear.
May 11, 2009 at 3:26 pm
MA Writes: “and used as an excuse among AA defenders as a reason for the 95% failure rate. ”
That ain’t true either. The whole premise is the fact that not all alcoholics wind up in an AA meeting. Is that not at all believable to you? Why is that thought so foreign to reality for you? Some people are just lonely or have some other ailment. Also, of those alkies, some may not be done drinking yet and willing to work steps. What’s o Rocket-Science about that?
You make this sound like we manipulate stats. You’re the one who’s so concerned about stats.
AA was doing fine 73+ years ago and it’s doing fine now.
May 11, 2009 at 3:32 pm
MA writes: ““Most court ordered attendees don’t want to be there, so they increase the percentage of failures” is the standard line. ”
No it’s not! There ain’t no “Standard Line”. The fact is, a lot of non-alkies get sent to AA. And yes, common theives and child molesters don’t like being sent to AA and AA’s don’t appreciate receiving them. Further proof that AA has nothing to do with what the judges, DAs POs lawyers, etc. do. They hear that “AA Works” and rightly so. But AA works for alcoholics. It works best for those who volunteer. What’s so hard to believe about that. Those who go to AA because they “want to” or as you would say “are culted in” only hope some of those who aren’t ready yet may at least may have a seed planted that they can go back when they’re ready. That’s what happened to me at 18, then 27.
I’m glad for my failures as much as my successes. They helped me grow and brought me to here. Sorry. Sorry. I don’t want to load your site down with cult talk.
I don’t want to get my “Cult” breath on you.
May 11, 2009 at 3:40 pm
Love your selective quoting. Why didn’t you quote this? Doesn’t sound culty enough for your site in your AA bashing?
“” ….. used to say, “I’m not drinking no matter what! All you can drink, but I’m staying sober.”
Then I think we said, “Calm down ……”
But… it’s an attitude and I think a healthy one. If people aren’t having fun at some level in recovery, I think they’re missing something. What about the “Just because I’m alive today” feeling? I get that strongly lately. “”
So, if AA didn’t work, I’d find something else. Believe me when I say that. I have a wife who met me when I was sober. She likes that person. When I get off of work, she expects me to come home. She likes being around me.
So… I go to a meeting a night or two out of the week. When I was alone and a bit lonely, I used to go to way more meetings.
Is that a problem here? Is this something to bash not only the most successful solution to Alcoholism in AA, but also its members?
What do you got that’s so hot? What are you sellin?
__________________
This is what I do.
May 11, 2009 at 3:43 pm
Your authors; Woah! You can put a Hitler mustache on Bill W! So creative!
Why don’t you get out of your mom’s basement, put the bong down, and get a job?
You didn’t make him look like Hitler. He looks like a sobered up and sometimes depressed New York US American War Veteran stock broker.
You’re the Hitler around here buddy.
May 11, 2009 at 3:46 pm
Is AA a secret society? Gee, I don’t know.
Adams County in Denver Colorado sentenced me to it back about 25 years ago and I’ve been a willing participant for about the last 16 years and they haven’t let me in on the “secret” yet.
So what’s the secret? Calgon?
May 11, 2009 at 3:55 pm
MA Writes: “If they don’t want to be there, why would AA accept them? It actually goes against their tradition of accepting as members “anyone with a desire to quit drinking”. ”
Not so fast, skippy. It’s true, you can say, “I have a desire to stop drinking” and be allowed to sit in an AA meeting. If you’re uncertain about whether you’re an alky or not you’re asked to consider it and find out more about it. Heck, in open meetings, you don’t even have to be an alcoholic at all, but you’re encouraged to confine your talk to problems as they relate to alcohol.
In closed meetings, you’re not welcome unless you DO PERSONNALY have a problem with booze. AA has a very very narrowed focus when it comes to what help they offer the world, but thinks their steps could benefit all.
As a side note, have you tried any of the steps yourself? Have you benefitted from any? If so, some of us would like you to share that here.
Like honesty and embellishment of facts. How are you with those today?
May 11, 2009 at 4:14 pm
Now, this is the most damaging and completest of BS on here from what I’ve seen:
MA writes: “AA actually helps to facilitate the revolving door of habitual drunk drivers, because these court appointed AAs wind up where they began. This costs you and me in tax dollars. Treatment centres who use twelve step facilitation (90% of all rehab centres), use AA as their aftercare programs. The high failure rate of AA translates into multiple relapses, paid for by insurance. Our insurance premiums go up because of their reliance on a Higher Power® and faith healing to fix a physiological ailment. Don’t think for a minute AA does not cost you because they pass around a collection plate.”
AA doesn’t have much to do with the sentencing of drunk drivers. In fact, they have absolutely nothing to do with it. The harder somebody tries to control the drunk, the worse they seem to fail.
I hear in El Salvador, they sentence you to death for your first DUI. I don’t know if it’s true or not.
I do know that it’s possible that non-alkies are getting DUIs from time to time. You yourself could go out and have three beers or more, drive and get pulled over and get busted with DUI or DWAI. But I think what’s concerning most is the habitual offenders. This is very bad, I’ll agree.
But how about this thought; there’s a whole bunch of recovered alcoholics in and outside of AA who NEVER EVER got a DUI and never will.
I have theories about DUIs that I won’t even post here because they are so controversial and I wouldn’t want anybody to mistake my theories with that of AA or any Recovery site, of which I nor does anybody on here represent.
You can go ahead and bold those words, buddy.
Now, let’s talk about tax dollars for just a second; ATF!
Suck that! I bet most good drunks more than pull their weight. Why aren’t you picking on Meth Cooks and Meth heads this week?
Treatment centers base their recovery on 12-Step, but it’s far from AA, buddy. I’ve been there myself and seen with my own eyes.
I’ve got all kinds of opinions about treatment centers. The last one I had to go to in order to try to save a job, it cost me $8000.00 out of pocket and my insurance paid $5000.00. Now this is none of your business and none of AAs business either. AA had absolutely NOTHING to do with it.
What’s your point? Oh, you have none. Take the garbage out for your mom and dad today.
Now, as far as aftercare, they say go to AA, but they encourage you to take anabuse, spend time with counselors throughout the week, etc. Some have “AA” meetings right in their own facility and one I know of passed the basket in the treatment center. Where does their AA money go to?
They send their clients to AA because it’s the most successful program for drunks. Not for other drug addicts, gamblers, over eaters, etc.
Oh, do you want to hear about my new AZ meeting?
Adult Bad Children of Dysfunctional Evil Families Getting Hooked Into Just Keeping Little Mean Nasty Old People Quiet Requiring Stupendous Tenacity Utilizing Vociferousness With eXtraordinarily Youthful Zeal.
Aren’t I a good writer? Make an offer.
AA passes around the collection plate to pay for some coffee, the electricity it takes to turn on the lights, have a place to part their ass, and maybe not suffer the heat or cold for 1 hour. Then if they have any money left over, they donate it off.
We don’t keep money around so we don’t fight over it. Are you really gonna make a big deal about that?
What next do you want to get slammed about?
May 11, 2009 at 4:23 pm
“”I was really astonished at the typical A.A. coersive, gaslighting dogma that was considered seriously. Why would the court rely on A.A. members, especially the old-timers, who are in danger of losing their meeting house (their small pond), “”
What are you going off about now? AA needs a place to meet. That may be in a club in a strip mall, in a church basement, in someone’s own home… whatever.
We meet in a church and donate about $25/month to the church to do so. That’s 4 meetings a month approximately. We used to donate more, but we’re down to about 4 to 10 people. What little money we have left over, we buy coffee, cups, and filters with, then everything else gets donated to the local intergroup.
If AA doesn’t make enough on the meetings, they use book sales and vice versa. Some AA meetings I go to takes up collections to bring AA Big Books into the jails. I heard that went so well, almost every inmate could have their own AA book, whether they’re alky or not.
I don’t know if that’s true. It’s just what I’ve once heard. I heard the inmates like to use the blue on the old book covers for ink in their tats.
Now your site has some noteworthy trivia on it.
Your site’s stock just went up.
May 11, 2009 at 4:24 pm
You know what? I think I’m taking this site over.
Why don’t you just leave. You bore us.
May 11, 2009 at 4:34 pm
MA or somebody on here writes: “If you ever get bored one day, and want an exercise in futility, find an AAer and ask them to pin down exactly what they believe AA to be. ”
Either that or work with lepers.
Or start a webpage called donewithaa.
What does that mean, anyway? You went to AA and they kicked you out for being a wuss?
So you’ve got a grudge or something?
If so, why don’t you put AA in column 1, the Problem in column 2, and solve your problem in column 3 because AA doesn’t have one.
BAUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You wanna know what AA is? I’ll tell ya;
It’s a place where you get to go have a cup of coffee, pay a buck, talk for 5 minutes and shut your hole and listen for 55 minutes.
Now the more I think about that, the more spiritual it seems. AA is cool.
AA shreds.
May 11, 2009 at 4:47 pm
““Religion is for people who fear Hell, Spirituality is for people who have been there”
You know, I’ll agree with you that there’s a bunch of BS in AA.
But it’s sort of my job to sort it out. I don’t think early Midwestern AA started off this way or got to stupid slogans.
I do know what AA IS like without all the BS. My meeting for example. It’s for only people who meet 2 conditions;
1) You got a problem with booze?
2) You want to quit for good and all?
If they answer yes and yes and mean it, they do well in our group. If they’re not really alkies, they get bored with us and leave.
We don’t have a slogan on our door that says, “Keep Coming Back”
We do steps out of the book, the specific directions, not suggestions, for getting and staying sober. And yes, we help other drunks too. What else would we do? Sell shoes?
If you found an easier or better way, good for you. Welcome to it.
“Keep Going Back”
If you want the insurance money to go to the Life Ring or SMART Recovery or Rational Recovery, fine.
Bring that recovery rate on up to 100% for all I care. I think that’s fine. Have at it. Maybe then and only then, I’ll consider it myself.
Go to the judges and treatment centers and give them your books. Prove to them how successful you are. You won’t hurt AAs feelings.
We’ll hold our breath. Well actually no, we won’t.
In the meantime, I know what works for me. I’m not willing to risk my life and yours (we get DUIs and kill people, remember?) to try something new.
I already know hard-lined AA that’s done right out of the book and minus all the external added on BS and subtracted from original recipe AA directions works just fine.
May 11, 2009 at 5:45 pm
Some of us in AA think AA is for Alcoholics, period. And alcoholics who want to get and stay sober.
It’s a pretty simple concept, really. If you ask me, I think it’s the courts and treatment centers that watered down AA to begin with. That’s my opinion of course. Based on what I’ve seen with my own eyes.
It’s also pointed out in that book very specifically what to do to determine if you’re an alcoholic or not. You can add all your theories and other stuff until the cows come home. I know what I am and where I stand and that’s the fact that alcoholics are rare to begin with.
But, in any case, the original intent of AA was to be convinced that ;
A) We were alcoholic and could not manage our own lives
B) Probably no human power could have relieved our alcoholism
C) God could and would if he were sought.
If you’re not convinced of those 3 things, throw the book away!
I swear, that’s what the original intent was! That’s right there in the original manuscript. They made Bill W take that out!
But we know their intent!
Do you want we should put that back in the book? We can say, “Throw the book away and try
Life Ring
Rational Recovery®
SMART Recovery®
Stanton Peele
That would be perfect, wouldn’t it?
There! I come over to your site and solve all your problems!
Oh, you’re welcome in advance.
Have a nice day. Do your parent’s dishes.
August 22, 2009 at 3:25 pm
mcgowdog,
Thanks for the tip….never once in the program in 13 years was I ever given those other options instead of AA. I was told AA works if you work it, and if you can’t then you are born the the incapacity to be honest. Well to be honest, that is a crock of shit and have always hated the the preamble. It is out of date and wrong! I did every thing that was “suggested cause if I didn’t I was going to get drunk”, yet always something was missing. Oh I know, it was me and my self esteem and my ego that got even more deflated (if that was possible). Now thanks to other options, I am in control of my own sobriety and guess what? I am no longer afraid that I am going to get drunk because of something I am not doing right in A.A. Since I am part of the 95% of people that A.A. didn’t work for, I get the chance to explain how and why. It is not bashing but stating some facts that are very well hidden. But they can be found in the Orange Papers for anyone seeking some answers to some VERY hard questions that will NEVER get answered in A.A.
Have a happy sober day!
May 11, 2009 at 6:20 pm
Quote from some retard from over here:
“There’s a saying in the rheums (note to you meme-herders out there — i’m trademarking that one) of AA that goes a little something like this (sing along if you know the words):
“Point one finger out and three more are pointed right back at you.”
Now i suppose it is physically possible to point one finger “”
Der! Doiy! Note! I trademarked that one too! So don’t use my brilliant words either. Rheum? That’s your brilliant contribution to society?
Shouldn’t you be watching Romper Room about now? Look, it’s Miley! Maybe that’s your speed. Now behave and mind your mommy. Back away from the keyboards children.
May 11, 2009 at 6:31 pm
[…] Posted on May 11, 2009 by friendthegirl We are so glad to have you! Since you have put so much careful time into deconstructing MA’s “Fun with the Wackos” post, we’re going to respond to you properly, here on the main page. It seems such a waste to bury […]
May 11, 2009 at 8:33 pm
“have a place to part their ass”
This has to be the most spectacularly amusing Freudian slip I have ever read.
May 12, 2009 at 3:36 pm
Yeah. I meant “park”… I think.
I’ll leave that up to you here to slam into the ground.
Have fun kiddies.
I’ve gotta go earn a living.
Go well, have fun, get laid, laugh.
May 13, 2009 at 5:25 pm
After some 17 comments in a row! I noticed another thing…after I’ve calmed down a bit;
M.A. writes;
“What I want to point out is how he puts “AA doesn’t work for” in quotes. The subtext here is that those people don’t really work AA. AA didn’t really fail. They fail AA. They can’t fathom the idea of AA failing.”
No, that’s not true of what I was saying there MA, nor can I not fathom the idea of AA failing.
I of all should know that AA doesn’t work for some.
But the truth remains; there are many different types of AA. Your basic run-of-the-mill AA is nothing like what is “suggested” in that book and is more like a social group. It really is. Go check it out. And some people stay sober just fine in that. That is what I’m realizing now!
Then there’s a sort of hard-core by the book AA which I am accustomed to. Call it a cult, if you will. But we intend to be very exclusive, not inclusive. Even this type of AA can fail me, or I it. However that goes. I was in a group like this and I still drank!
So who’s at fault? AA? Me? Who cares? I’m drunk. But something really did click for me. In that hard-core meeting that I went back to after some bad drinking. I came in and did what they do… and have been happy and sober ever since.
What was different about me? About AA? Nothing, about AA, I don’t think. I just sort of came in without a plan; without any hope whatsoever. I was whipped and confused and a little scared. They were very cool to me. But they also kept responsibility in my own court. They said, “It’s up to you, bud. Either you’re gonna do this stuff or you’re not.”
I don’t know how to describe those simple words to you. But that right there seemed like the turning point of my life! I became what they call “willing.”
The book used words that you would probably mock and call cultish and corny. But when I had walked back to that meeting as I thought I had many times in the past, “Alcohol finally beat me into a state of reasonableness.” “Some of us have to be pretty badly mangled.”
This is where I’m coming from today. Does this make me an AA zealot?
May 14, 2009 at 12:52 am
Wow, that McGowdog fellow writes an awful lot like a guy I use to know in AA. A guy with a lot of time…a big vocabulary…and a penchant for trying to impress others with how smart he was. His type gets a lot of mileage in a place like AA; in no other venue would such an obvious dolt be taken seriously.
May 14, 2009 at 2:31 pm
Greetings from another Wacko at Soberrecovery.com !!!
I don’t speak for Soberrecovery or anyone there…. Nor do I represent AA.
Your statement…
“AA actually helps to facilitate the revolving door of habitual drunk drivers, because these court appointed AAs wind up where they began. This costs you and me in tax dollars. Treatment centres who use twelve step facilitation (90% of all rehab centres), use AA as their aftercare programs. The high failure rate of AA translates into multiple relapses, paid for by insurance. ”
…Is gibberish and fails to take many things into account. Your implied conclusion that AA is responsible for for these costs in tax dollars and increased health care premiums is, in fact, irresponsible.
The court system has to take into account that there is no law to prohibit people from drinking. Until we, as a democracy, want to take away that right, there is nothing to stop anybody from drinking… Prohibition demonstrated that laws don’t work to well anyway when it comes to alcohol. I am AA, I don’t care if someone wants to drink, if they want to stop drinking, I will try to help. I would be helping that individual…. my responsibility is NOT to the judicial system and the taxpayer. I was not hired to do that job by anyone.
If the poor downtrodden execs at health insurance companies don’t like the success rates of AA, well, tough… they can hire and pay for their own providers… Private rehabs and treatment don’t do so great either. Whatever, AA has no responsibility or obligation whatsoever to any other private institution, period. Why do you seem to criticize AA in regards to the failures of the health care industry? All they do is open their doors to people who, for whatever reason, state a desire to quit drinking…. Whether these individuals truly have the willingness to stay sober, is, finally and ultimately, their own responsibility.
Why do you guys spend all this time attacking AA? What program of recovery do you offer?
AA has a policy of attraction, not promotion. If you, the courts, health insurance providers, whomever, don’t like AA, fine… go somewhere else, spend whatever money you like, somewhere else, not that any gets spent for AA.
Oh, by the way, AA has no opinion on this issue. I speak only in anonymity and for myself.
May 14, 2009 at 2:58 pm
Hi, Cubile.
Yes, I am aware that you don’t speak for AA (nobody does), and AA has no opinion on this issue (they never do), and AA is “attraction, not promotion” (not true). I am aware most of these standard lines and dogma.
We have learned that we can’t discuss issues rationally with those who have been brainwashed by AA, so I won’t try argue with you.
Thanks for visiting our blog.
May 14, 2009 at 3:13 pm
M.A.
Whatever… I was interested in discussing it, just wanted to make it clear that I was only representing my own opinion… not AA’s.
I am not brainwashed… where did you get that idea?
In fact, I am pretty well trained in my field and by most standards, well educated. I believe that your statements that make AA out to be the devil when it comes to the costs to taxpayers and health insurance premiums are misleading, and in fact, malicious.
May 20, 2009 at 2:21 pm
i really am cuter sober. 🙂
i think the worst thing i could tell you is this – i’m praying for y’all, dear darlins, with nothing but sweetness and light.
xoxo
May 20, 2009 at 3:39 pm
Thank you, Emily.
The last person who told me this was a Moonie at the airport, but I think he might have had the wrong deity. I hope yours is something more reasonable – like a doorknob or a chia pet.
May 25, 2009 at 1:53 am
I like to think I’m well educated, and I don’t think AA is a cult, but even if it is, what does it matter? Like McGowdog posts, it would only be bad if it’s making people’s lives worse, and it isn’t. The only ‘brainwashing’ you could possibly accuse it of is against alcohol. What’s the big deal in that? Alcohol isn’t necessary to our survival. Yes, AA asks for money, but many times I’ve never given anything and have never felt less accepted for it. I expect you won’t want to listen to anything I have to say now that I’ve ‘outed’ myself as an AA-er, well that’s your problem not mine. It seems to me you are the one who is brainwashed, by a world which believes alcoholic drinking is fine while belief in God is not.
May 25, 2009 at 10:47 am
Hi recoveringlondon.
We appreciate and do listen to what you and any AA have to tell us, even though we may not agree. We try not debate specific points, as we have learned that arguing religion is pointless. Also, if you are going to reference McGowdog, could you be more specific? He left close to fifty rants during his serenity meltdown, and it is difficult for us to figure out to which one you happen to be referring.
MA
August 22, 2009 at 3:15 pm
Recoveringinlondon, though you may not be back to read this, I’d like to clarify for those who read your post.
If it is a cult, which it may or may not be, people deserve the right to research what they see and read. After 13 years in the program and many relatives as well, I have the right to say why it didn’t work for me as well as 95% of others that also didn’ t work for.
It is fine not to believe in god just as it is fine to believe in God. But for those who are secular, AA is definately not going to help them. Though there are some great tools to be had, there are many that will greatly harm your recovery. Take what you want and leave the rest. For some that is almost everything AA’s religion tells them. We can all have an open mind but when our brains start falling out (washed or not), it is time to step outside the box and see what is really going one. Congrats to you for finding YOUR way, and now WE find ours. Just because you don’t agree with everything said, doesn’t make it wrong. A.A. may not be wrong for the 5% that stay but it doesn’t make it right for the 95% that don’t!
May 25, 2009 at 2:07 am
As for your argument that the steps are bad because they are a cultish thing to do: people are forced to go to school and learn western-centric ideology every day from the ages of 5 – 18, but I don’t see you taking the time to write a blog about why that might be a bad thing.
I already have an idea what your response might be because your arguments are basically circular. According to you, everything us AA’s say just proves that it is a cult, regardless of the content of what we actually say. So I won’t be checking back here after this.
May 25, 2009 at 9:10 am
Hi recoveringlondon,
I don’t think that your program would condone your doing a stealth hit and run inventory-taking on people you refuse to know and refuse to engage.
LG&LG,
ftg
(Psst: Don’t forget to include this in your next 4th step! 🙂 )
July 14, 2009 at 8:28 am
Wild stuff. Not only is the blog entry fairly accurate, but the replies from the wacky AAs illustrated the utterly brainwashed and clueless nuttiness that you can expect to run into at the halls if you were inclined to take a real life peek.
It’s like a comedy skit in an insane asylum.
Cheers, you crazy freakin’ drunks.
p.s., the guy who said “I haven’t had a DUI in 23 years”, as if it were some sort of superhuman accomplishment, made me laugh out loud.
p.p.s, the guy who referred to “recovered alcoholics” in AA (the same guy, I think) also made me laugh out loud. Recovery, according to AA, is a life sentence — it is impossible to ever actually reach a recovered state.
July 14, 2009 at 9:04 am
McGowdog is a laugh riot, and I am so sad that he’s stopped posting here. He’s very occupied clanging on street signs with his metal bowl over on his own blog, so he doesn’t have much time to entertain us anymore.
We sure miss that guy.
So, welcome billdub!
July 14, 2009 at 3:15 pm
The thing that I really don’t understand is the complete lack of desire to improve the method.
It goes against the grain of human nature, we as an intelligent species are always striving to improve in every direction to make our lives better. Do we say, No flat screen TV for me, thank you, I’m a radio only kind of guy. You can keep those fancy X-rays as well, my broken bones will mend on their own accord, they will of course, perhaps not properly, but they will, most of the time anyway. Air travel? No sir. If man was meant to fly he would have wings. No need to look in that direction when a mule is all my family needs. I’ll never get any better anyway, I’ll always be sick and stupid. When things get tough just accept it, no need to try, god must not want me to have these things after all.
I want good food and a nice place to live. I want quality health care. I want vacations for my family. I want a nice car. I want the best set of golf clubs money can buy. I may not be able to swing peace on earth, but I can do my part in my neighborhood to make it a great place to live. All these things are obtainable if I set goals and work toward them. Where whould I be if I said “things are good enough, no need to try.”?
Do I want “a life way beyond abstinence”? Of course I do. Who would answer no to that question?
July 14, 2009 at 4:18 pm
I really hate “you’re right where you should be,” as an AA slogan, but there’s also “let go and let God” (if he’s God he doesn’t need my permission) and most of all, “God doesn’t give us more than we can handle.”
Oh yeah? Tell the millions starving in insufficient shelter all over the world that; or better yet tell the children who die every day (every minute) of easily preventable sickness and, of course, malnutrition. That is every minute of every single day and night all over the world folks, on and on for thousands of years.
Tell them as they close their eyes for the final time frightened, alone, in pain that they are “right where they should be,” that “there are no accidents in God’s world,” that they should “let go and let God,” or that God hasn’t given them “more than they can handle.” That crap makes me spit.
Sorry children, God is busy granting Danny his daily reprieve from “alcoholism” and strangely enough also busy sending out his patented “God shots” in the form of found keys, parking places opened up, reprieves from incarceration and serendipitous appearances of checks to a very specific group of white people in America.
July 14, 2009 at 4:30 pm
Reminds me of: http://www.luvdrunk.org/corky/
August 22, 2009 at 3:06 pm
I tried the Twelve Steps, and they didn’t work for me. God didn’t remove my desires for alcohol and tobacco.
So I tried them again, and they didn’t work.
My sponsor told me to work a better program.
So I tried them again, and they didn’t work.
My sponsor told me to work an even better program.
So I tried them again, and they didn’t work.
Then somebody said, “If you keep on doing what you’ve always been doing, you’re gonna get what you’ve always been getting. To expect anything different is insane.”
So I quit A.A..
I love this…from the Orange Papers…so true!
August 22, 2009 at 3:23 pm
Or, “if you are satisfied with the results that you have been getting, keep doing what you are doing.”
The 12 steps have nothing at all to do with drinking.
In AA, you are supposed to stop on your own.
October 13, 2009 at 5:14 am
I’m not sure how that would happen. AA isn’t a building. It really isn’t even an organization. It’s this weird thing that is a part of my life whenever I encounter another suffering alcoholic. All other members of AA could be wiped off the face of the earth and I still wouldn’t be without AA as long as I was able to find just one other suffering alcoholic.
I know this is a hypothetical question. But I often get the sense that some members of AA fear that if AA isn’t “done right” it will die. Some of these are active supporters of all sorts of “Back to Basics” movements, attempts to get AA back to the way it should be done. Not sure if that’s a worthwhile endeavor as I suspect that we stopped doing certain things because they simply stopped working.
I’m not sure exactly what AA is to be honest. It’s certainly something more than rules and regulations, something more than the Steps. I think it’s something simple, like one alcholic helping another alcoholic. If so, I’m fine doing what I’m doing. Not too worried about AA, whatever it is.
Take care! I’ve never been to this site before and think I’ll come back. I like hearing other points of views… I get bored with my own.
Mike L.
October 13, 2009 at 11:00 am
AA is not much of anything. AA gets entirely too much crdeit; entirely too much discredit. Basically, it gives people permission to quit. Some people call that a placebo effect.
People stay in AA because they want to stay; they get something out of it. Peope leave AA because they want to leave. It did not fit with them. They went somewhere; did something else.
October 13, 2009 at 4:59 pm
i haven’t read all the posts on this article
these reply posts from a macgowdog
i find them very very angry like a baby throwing its dummy out of the cot –
and crying for attention and recognition to be the centre of attention-
it is strange my last sponsor among other members of AA told me that if a person gets angry at what they are hearing it is because they are hearing the truth-
as for it not working for those who dont want it or work it-
i went to AA willingly and started on all the suggestions steps sponsor meetings-
and tryed it for over 8 years-
only to find it dont work for me
only to find that after leaving and doing all i could to de-progrmme myself-and try something else
that i can control my alcohol use-
pre-entering AA and when entering i believed myself to be an alcoholic
my doctor also said this-
it is in my medical records from pre-AA-
on entering it was drummed into me i was –
but i kept being told i wasnt accepting it
(I did )-
there excuse for the programme not working for me
was that i wasnt accepting it not accepting powerlessness-not being honest telling myself i could drink (I was constantly telling myself i couldnt drink and was powerless just as i had been ordered to do by the
mambers of AA-i really thought i was powerless)
each time i relapsed and drank i thought i was going to die-and would run to AA as soon as i sobered up after a drunk in fear of drinking again)
not working it (i did work it-infact im still trying at times
to stop working it-tall the writeing of steps in NA all the reading all the mental work
all the step 4’s all the prayers to be rod of defects
and makeing of ammneds and so on and so forth same old same old)
all those rituals are hard to get rid of)-not doing it
not believing in it
(i did for years but no longer do how can i when i have tried it for so long so many times only to find it dont work)
not haveing found god-not haveing faith-
(i got a god have had one all my life-and even gained a testamony of a god pre-AA)
not enough meetings-my doctor had to give me morphone for the pain in my legs from walking too much
damaged spine and i tore all the ligaments in top of legs from all the walking to meetings)
and lots more
all pointing there finger at me all saying it was something i was not doing –
or something i was doing wrong-
They are liars-
it just didnt work for me -period-
simple as that-
now that i have left and can control drink-
have been drunk once since january-and have one small bottle larger at times -with periods of weeks of abstinance in between)
now they say i was not and am not an alcohlic
these posts from the mad dog gow
show me what i got away from-
and im glad i did.the mad dog reminds me of the bullies and lecturers in AA
The way AA;s talk about AA tells me it is a cult-
there are millions of folk in this world and i am among them
that are gratefull to someone some people or someplace for saveing there lives-
but it is only those in AA and cults who talk in such ways as the mad dog and others in AA do
most people places are happy for a simple thankyou when they help another-
they dont expect and i dare say wouldnt want
the kind of undying dramma queen
talk of undying gratitude
that AA’s spout off.
it is sickly to listen to it is selfish of AA to expect
it-
December 18, 2009 at 11:19 am
Someone fairly high up on the site advised me to avoid the 12 steps section at SR. Because he said it was just weirdos and fundamentalists, and I wouldn’t get any help there.
I’ve decided I’ve had enough of the site. Last straw has been new member basIam who can’t tolerate anybody saying AA didn’t work for them, which is ‘selfish’, when he is fond of saying everywhere that rehab didn’t work for him, therapy didn’t work, CBA didn’t work. Totally ignorant and arrogant. I was neutral about AA but am totally disgusted with it now, people who can’t make the most basic day to day decisions without their sponsors. I do have recovery with another program. Of course though that means that I was not a ‘real alcoholic’. I don’t post any question or ask advice about recovery there because I know what I will get.
The AA Big Book is way outdated, the language is a turn off for a woman of the 21st century. But of course the Big Book is their Bible, it is ‘divinely inspired’ (that’s claimed on the site), a ‘work of prophecy’, and it would be absolute heresy to alter it in any way.
One member who dared recently question his fellow AA’s tactics and attitude quickly got his post removed. I’m amazed though at what is so offensive and obnoxious and is allowed to remain.
December 23, 2009 at 4:54 am
How is someone who says “that rehab didn’t work for him, therapy didn’t work, CBA didn’t work.” lead you to the conclusion that he is “Totally ignorant and arrogant.”
fuggin’ moron. you lake the rationale to make sense of anything, let alone recovery.
December 23, 2009 at 4:57 am
“lake” (?)
December 23, 2009 at 4:59 am
arguing sematics is the mark of the fool.
you know it was a typo.
December 23, 2009 at 5:13 am
That’s not a typo, it’s a plug-ignorant mis-spelling.
In either case it would not be a matter of semantics.
Do you even know what semantics are?
December 23, 2009 at 2:45 pm
semantics – noun (used with a singular verb) 1. Linguistics. a. the study of meaning.
b. the study of linguistic development by classifying and examining changes in meaning and form.
2. Also called significs. the branch of semiotics dealing with the relations between signs and what they denote.
3. the meaning, or an interpretation of the meaning, of a word, sign, sentence, etc.: Let’s not argue about semantics.
To argue that the invalidity of my statement is to argue semantics.
fool
December 23, 2009 at 3:29 pm
Aha, joe has learned to read a dictionary. Wonders never cease.
March 26, 2010 at 5:12 pm
you are well aware what she meant is that this man bashes anything that does not fit into his ideals, but far be it from anyone else to question his way. We cannot ask questions about his beloved AA yet he can bash any and all other recovery programs, which, btw, have worked for millions. laughable, the both of you! SR Nazi’s at it again!
December 23, 2009 at 1:02 pm
Flame much?
December 23, 2009 at 4:58 am
hey moron. . . you need to learn to read. . .
basIam can’t tolerate anyone who says AA didn’t work for them when, IN THEIR OWN WORDS they didn’t try it.
Its logical to say, I didnt want to do so I didnt do it. . . it is delusional to say it didnt work.
December 23, 2009 at 1:06 pm
Hey, Tardo, you need to learn to think. AA doesn’t work, so why should anyone “try it”? The experiment is complete, the results are in, and the reports have been written.
December 23, 2009 at 2:36 pm
worked for me.
QED
December 23, 2009 at 3:31 pm
you want an attaboy?
you quit drinking? So what?
December 18, 2009 at 12:44 pm
SR is barking mad. It is not a safe place. neither is AA.
April 27, 2011 at 2:54 am
Assertiveness is state of self-assurance wherein 1 is bold, direct and mainly confident with other people. Many times assertiveness gets confused with aggression. This leads to mishaps like snubbing other men and women on the wrong site, thereby producing a negative impact. For this cause, it is critical to recognize how to be assertive specially at the operate place. Being assertive can showcase a more proactive and confident person.
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People tend to be hesitant to assert themselves for the following factors:
They really feel anxious that it would attract dislike from others
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The only way this can take place is via their assertiveness. It assists them get their tips across, and with a small bit of convincing, every person sees excellent judgement in their view. People have a tendency to respect those have the potential to be assertive, not aggressive.
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October 15, 2011 at 9:28 pm
bad breath…
[…]“Where would I be without AA?” The Wackos at the Sober Recovery Forum « Stinkin' Thinkin'[…]…
November 7, 2011 at 3:37 am
Thank you. Been sayin this for a long time. Don’t know if u ever visited orange papers site. You would like it. I’m lookin for a forum of recovering ppl not in aa,like orange papers but more focused on support. Anyway love your post.
August 25, 2012 at 6:45 pm
Real Disease vs. Mental “Disorder”
Psychiatric disorders are not medical diseases. There are no lab tests, brain scans, X-rays or chemical imbalance tests that can verify any mental disorder is a physical condition. This is not to say that people do not get depressed, or that people can’t experience emotional or mental duress, but psychiatry has repackaged these emotions and behaviors as “disease” in order to sell drugs. This is a brilliant marketing campaign, but it is not science.
Soberrecovery forums is just a big marketting website for big pharma and the disease myth !
They CENCOR the TRUTH !
August 25, 2012 at 6:52 pm
No Genetic Proof of alcoholism being a disease !!!
“No claim for a gene for a psychiatric condition has stood the test of time, in spite of popular misinformation.” —Dr. Joseph Glenmullen, Harvard Medical School psychiatrist
The worst part of cencorship is ***** and ***** *** **** ******* !
FRAUD website soberrecovery wont allow any debate or outside thinking !
**** *** soberrecovery and your ban.
August 10, 2013 at 5:41 am
Still sober. Still credit A.A. 9 + years and still doing steps yearly. Still going to one or two meetings a week and meeting up with A.A. peeps once a week for lunch. Happily married love my career, nice home and healthy family and friends. Wonder what MAa and ftg are up to. M hasn’t called me in something like a year. Said he was starting a new site but lost track of him.
January 20, 2015 at 9:01 am
11 years sober now. Sort of trying to leave A.A. have been politely asked to come back and still looking for an exit strategy. Still looking for the bad stuff in A.A. y’all claim and haven’t found it yet.
May 31, 2015 at 9:11 pm
I’m figuring that Monica’s 13th Step movie is going to go mainstream soon, the courts will stop sending folks to A.A., the liberals within A.A. will leave, the fellowship will shrink, the fellowship then will disband, World Services will disband and close shop, then the anti/XAer police will come to peoples’ homes and gather up every copy of Alcoholics Anonymous, the 12×12 and other A.A. literature and have a book burning.
Can’t wait…
October 22, 2015 at 2:48 am
I think I’ve been sober for over 120 days now WITHOUT going to A.A. nor doing steps. Do I get a 90 Day chip or something? In January, I will have been sober 12 years and I will not have done it one day at a time. Hell, you can say I did it 72 days at a time. Eat that, Marty McFly. Moron. Anywho… how about them Cubs?
August 16, 2016 at 7:52 pm
I’ve been sober for 12 and a half years and over one year without A.A. I did go to an A.A. meeting a few weeks ago to check in on my old grouo and it was strange. It cemented the fact for me that I did the right thing!
Oh, still enjoying life without booze and drugs. I’ve got my own program now and I have no rules.