We are so glad to have you! Since you have put so much careful time into deconstructing MA’s “Fun with the Wackos” post, we’re going to respond to you properly, here on the main page. It seems such a waste to bury your comments at the bottom of an old post. You’ve really given us a lot to chew on, and our work is definitely cut out for us! We’re game.
Just to be clear, we don’t argue with AAs, especially not in an attempt to change their minds about AA. It’s pointless to argue people out of their faith. However, we do feel duty-bound to offer up the facts for those who are questioning AA, in the process of deprogramming, and for people who are exploring alternative addiction recovery programs.
So, I’m going to start at the beginning, with your first comment:
What’s up, MA?
Glad we could be of service to you.
If you haven’t noticed, I am pro-AA. I do think there’s a difference between actually working the steps and just paying lip service to it. I can’t describe in words why that is other than… I’ve just seen the results in it and it’s helped people get back on their feet and get lives again. Some people are too lazy and are socialized in AA.
What’s so hard to believe about that? Oh, and tell me how AA works in affiliation with the courts? Does AA demand the judge to send potential alkies to AA or does AA put the finger on them to do so?
And, since you address the court connection again in a more recent comment, I’ll just add that in as well:
AA doesn’t have much to do with the sentencing of drunk drivers. In fact, they have absolutely nothing to do with it. The harder somebody tries to control the drunk, the worse they seem to fail.
Now, you kick off your fillibuster with a strawman “Oh, and tell me how AA works in affiliation with the courts? Does AA demand the judge to send potential alkies to AA or does AA put the finger on them to do so?” Do you know what a strawman is? It’s when you pretend someone said something they didn’t say, and then argue your point based on that pretend premise. This is a perfect example: we say “AA has an affiliation with the court system” and you turn that into a “AA demands the judge…”
If you’re trying to set the record straight about AA, then kicking off your argument with such intellectual dishonesty is no way to do that. Plus, it simply underscores our position that AA members employ gaslighting tactics, which may work very well for you in the rooms, but not so well among the reality-based population.
And yes, AA does actively pursue an affiliation with the court system. It’s called 12-Stepping, and you can read about it here, from the A.A. Guidelines: Cooperating with Court, D.W.I and Similar Programs, published by the G.S.O.
WHEN AND WHY A.A. BEGAN COOPERATING WITH LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES
In 1942, members from San Francisco brought the first A.A. meeting into San Quentin Prison at the request of Warden Clinton T. Duffy. This example led to A.A.’s cooperation with court systems, including direct communication with judges and parole and probation officials. The sole purpose of this Twelfth Step work, then and now, was to carry A.A.’s message to the still-suffering alcoholic. To fulfill that purpose, A.A.s have learned how to share A.A. information within court systems.
Here’s more:
Many A.A. members are not aware that this kind of Twelfth Step work is available and that they can participate in it.
In some locales, this service is coordinated by the Committee on Cooperation with the Professional Community (C.P.C.). Often ongoing Twelfth Step work within the court system leads to a subcommittee connected to the district or central office/intergroup.
Once again, we welcome you and look forward to addressing your points.
Stinkin' Thinkin' 
May 11, 2009 at 8:28 pm
ftg,
have you gotten the requisite “that’s not the real AA” e-mail in response, yet?
just wondering,
speedy
May 11, 2009 at 8:44 pm
Well… let’s see what YOU’RE trying to say in response to my response, shall we?
“””Now, you kick off your fillibuster with a strawman “Oh, and tell me how AA works in affiliation with the courts? Does AA demand the judge to send potential alkies to AA or does AA put the finger on them to do so?” Do you know what a strawman is? It’s when you pretend someone said something they didn’t say, and then argue your point based on that pretend premise. This is a perfect example: we say “AA has an affiliation with the court system” and you turn that into a “AA demands the judge…”
If you’re trying to set the record straight about AA, then kicking off your argument with such intellectual dishonesty is no way to do that. Plus, it simply underscores our position that AA members employ gaslighting tactics, which may work very well for you in the rooms, but not so well among the reality-based population.”””
What? Psycho, babble babble, blah blah blah… What are you saying about strawmen?
You guys claim that AA is a Cult and that it’s causing more DUIs and controlling the courts and the treatment centers, do you not?
Here, let me see if I can dig some of that up, since it’s YOUR site:
Quote by MA:
“”because it contains a number of cult red flags.”
So here, you’re making fun of specific users of a forum which is basically none of your business anyway, but oh well, you also know they don’t in any represent AA or the Recovery site on which they post, right?
“”It starts out with this post from “24hoursaday”
More poster bashing from MA:
“”with a thought stopping slogan from her sponsor “”
Now, you’re bashing another poster and their use of emoticons here:
“”Next, we get a couple of posts of emoticons (AAs love emoticons, by the way). Then we have “Pinkcuda” come in with this””
Nice.
Now you bash another poster which doesn’t represent AA, NA, CA, Recovery sites, or anything, just their personal ES&H (experience strength and hope, incase yall in here didn’t catch that groovy lingo we use):
“”And TTOSBT writes””
Here’s another user you bash:
“And this from “Justanothrdrunk”:””
And your brilliant conclusions:
“Without AA they would all be either dead, or dying. Not drunk, but dead.”
You are trying hard to defend your stance that AAers are brainwashed into sobriety and AA as the only path. Well, there again, what are you selling?
Here’s you , slamming more users over there that
A)Don’t represent AA as a whole and,
B) Don’t represent the Recovery site on which they post… they’re just minding their bidniz, posting:
“And nelco”
Now you site me! I’m a star!:
“”Next, McGowdog writes””
Now you write about me!
“This guy is stepping out on a limb and saying that he believes some people become sober in AA by simply going to meetings, and not doing the steps”
No I don’t. I’m only saying some don’t need to do steps to get and stay sober or not drink. I NEVER say they got sober there. They may not even be drunks. They may be hard drinkers, teetotalers, lonely, who knows.
Now you’re going out on a limb thinking you understand my post to make YOUR point and you can’t even get that right.
Now you give praise and adulation to someone besides me, and for that, I’m jealous!
“”Next, Jim chimes in with the best post in the thread. This one is deserving of 12-Step AAll-Star nomination:””
You sure you wanna go and pick on Jim? He’s got more Cult Charisma in his hang-nail than you got in your hole soul.
BTW… are you all in here sober from alcoholism? What’s your favorite technique to use on the various 4 types of alcoholics? How about a hard drinker? What do you think of codependency? Meth addiction? Who’s gonna win American Idol? Tell us something tangible. Tell us something we can use.
May 11, 2009 at 8:59 pm
Hi, McGowdog.
Welcome to our blog!
I don’t argue people’s religion with them. Particularly those in cult religions. I’ve learned that is futile. I can, however, respond to specific points, but you seem to be all over the map in this tirade. If you wish to pick a subject, I’ll happily address it.
I understand none of these people represent AA. That is another standard line. I believe that, as well as number of your other points, is addressed in this post: https://donewithaa.wordpress.com/2009/05/08/there-is-no-such-thing-as-a-a/
MA
May 11, 2009 at 9:28 pm
Oh good. How was your nap, McGowdog?
You went off on a little bit of a tangent, so I’m just going to address your specific response to what I said:
A strawman argument doesn’t have anything to do with psychobabble. It’s a rhetorical technique used by people who can’t stay on point. Rhetoric works like basic math, so it shouldn’t be too hard to understand if you apply yourself a little. Here, let me explain it again:
If I say, “AA has an affiliation with the courts.” And then you say, “Oh, so you’re saying that AA controls the courts, that it demands that judges… etc.” which I didn’t say, what you have done is put words in my mouth that are easier for you to argue against than what I actually said. So, the argument becomes about whether AA controls the court, which is what we would call a strawman argument.
One more thing I’d like to address is the fact that AA members are indeed accountable for what they say in public, to each other, and for what happens in meetings. AAWS, Inc. does not engage. It leaves the recruiting and training up to the members, and so what you say and what your AA associates say is AA. The set-up is ideal, because in this way, no one has to account for anything that happens in meetings. AAWS won’t step in to take ownership of the “program,” and the members can say, “Hey, these are just individuals who don’t represent AA.” And ta-dah! No one is responsible. I’m not buying it.
May 11, 2009 at 8:51 pm
Oh yeah, and it’s “cooperation”, not “affiliation.”
Know the difference?
It’s a slight difference. For one thing, AAs don’t go on the payroll, nor do they put any folks doing 12 step work “ON” the payroll.
So, just so you’ll know… there’s no funny business.
Oh, here’s another beauty MA writes about us; It’s so nice, I’m gonna repeat it a few times just so it’ll sink in;
MA writes about me personally and a few of my peeps:
“Poor, delusional, bastards.Poor, delusional, bastards.Poor, delusional, bastards.Poor, delusional, bastards.Poor, delusional, bastards.Poor, delusional, bastards.Poor, delusional, bastards.Poor, delusional, bastards.Poor, delusional, bastards.Poor, delusional, bastards…Yadda, Yadda, Yadda.
(edited to save a little room)
May 11, 2009 at 9:35 pm
I just wanted to approve this delightful comment as a one-time indulgence. Posts like this automatically go into the spam file — for obvious reasons — to await moderation. Any more like this will be deleted.
I do wonder what McGowdog sees as the distinction between “cooperation” and “affiliation” in this instance, as opposed to “control” or “demand.”
May 11, 2009 at 8:53 pm
In case you missed it, this is what MA said about me and some of my peeps:
“Poor, delusional, bastards.”
Nice.
May 11, 2009 at 8:55 pm
12-Step AAll Star Nomination!
That was actually good.
I like that.
Stay in your parent’s basements and keep a writing!
May 11, 2009 at 8:58 pm
“Once again, we welcome you and look forward to addressing your points.”
Oh, that’s no problem.
I’ll gradly read your points and respond with even more stuff.
I’m pimpin’ hard for that AA-LL Star Status that Jim got! Lucky Bastard!
What other nice words do yous use in here? yous use!
I made a funny!
May 11, 2009 at 9:15 pm
mcgowdog,
keep coming back!
you’re a shining example of AA’s abundant love, tolerance, & serenity. (you’re a little short in the ‘coherence’ & ‘lucidity’ areas, but … hey — it works if you work it!)
god sez he wuvs you,
speedy
May 11, 2009 at 9:21 pm
MA writes:
M A, on May 11th, 2009 at 8:59 pm Said:
Hi, McGowdog.
Welcome to our blog!
I don’t argue people’s religion with them. Particularly those in cult religions. I’ve learned that is futile. I can, however, respond to specific points, but you seem to be all over the map in this tirade. If you wish to pick a subject, I’ll happily address it.
I understand none of these people represent AA. That is another standard line. I believe that, as well as number of your other points, is addressed in this post: https://donewithaa.wordpress.com/2009/05/08/there-is-no-such-thing-as-a-a/
MA
See, there you go again. Calling AA both a religion AND a cult.
If I was in a cult, wouldn’t you have my welfare first and foremost?
If you were in a cult, I’d go upstairs from you basement and tell your mom and dad about it.
Do you know what you do with your inner child?
You reach deep down within yourself, pull him out, kick him in the arse and send him out of your basement and tell him to get a job.
May 11, 2009 at 9:26 pm
M A, on May 11th, 2009 at 8:59 pm Said:
Hi, McGowdog.
Welcome to our blog!
I don’t argue people’s religion with them. Particularly those in cult religions. I’ve learned that is futile. I can, however, respond to specific points, but you seem to be all over the map in this tirade. If you wish to pick a subject, I’ll happily address it.
I understand none of these people represent AA. That is another standard line. I believe that, as well as number of your other points, is addressed in this post: https://donewithaa.wordpress.com/2009/05/08/there-is-no-such-thing-as-a-a/
MA
Well thank you MA. You were talking about me in here, so I felt abliged to respond.
So now what are you saying? That because AA has some nifty traditions that we’re hiding out from responsibility?
Well if that’s the case, that’s some nifty organization right there.
Other huge corporations do the same. Have you ever had a guy tell you he’s the CEO or to talk to the CEO? Same kind of thing, except that AA’s structure is upside down and the power IS to the people.
Have you seen that Progressive commercial yet? Power to the people! I joked about that earlier, but I think you missed it.
I’m full of humor and good will.
May 11, 2009 at 9:27 pm
speedy0314, on May 11th, 2009 at 9:15 pm Said:
mcgowdog,
keep coming back!
you’re a shining example of AA’s abundant love, tolerance, & serenity. (you’re a little short in the ‘coherence’ & ‘lucidity’ areas, but … hey — it works if you work it!)
god sez he wuvs you,
speedy
Thanks, Speedy!
See, I knew you were cool somehow! You don’t have a Bill W-turned-Hitler avatar.
May 11, 2009 at 9:40 pm
Is this what is meant by “more will be revealed”? Someone’s doing a lot of revealing here today.
May 11, 2009 at 9:43 pm
friendthegirl writes:
A strawman argument doesn’t have anything to do with psychobabble. It’s a rhetorical technique used by people who can’t stay on point. Rhetoric works like basic math, so it shouldn’t be too hard to understand if you apply yourself a little.
Well I like math. I’m an EE and got A’s in Calc 1, 2, and 3 and B’s in Calc based Physics 1 for Scientists and Engineers (Mechanics) and Part 2 (Vibrations and Wave Motion).
May 11, 2009 at 9:54 pm
I’m going out on a limb and guessing you didn’t do as well in English and Philosophy.
May 11, 2009 at 9:52 pm
friendthegirl writes:
Here, let me explain it again:
If I say, “AA has an affiliation with the courts.” And then you say, “Oh, so you’re saying that AA controls the courts, that it demands that judges… etc.”
McGowdog writes:
So, affiliation is a word we ARE in agreement with. Good.
Now we’re at least on the same page. You’ll have to excuse me for being punchy today, as AA has already been likened to “Poor delusional bastards, a religion, a cult, and Hitler.
friendthegirl writes:
One more thing I’d like to address is the fact that AA members are indeed accountable for what they say in public, to each other, and for what happens in meetings.
McGowdog writes:
Well they are in the spirit of carrying the message to those who still suffer from alcoholism. Nobody speaks for AA in public. We are protected by that.
That’s why AA is still here and a long time after your hard drives and servers crash.
So what’s your point?
friendthegirl writes:
AAWS, Inc. does not engage. It leaves the recruiting and training up to the members, and so what you say and what your AA associates say is AA.
McGowdog writes:
I don’t speak for World Service and more in tune with a sort of grass-roots underground AA, myself. We don’t even have a GSR and we only contribute our caysh to the church we meet in and give the rest of the few bucks we have for coffee and some to the local Central Office which puts our addr in the local meeting list.
Sorry.
friendthegirl writes:
The set-up is ideal, because in this way, no one has to account for anything that happens in meetings. AAWS won’t step in to take ownership of the “program,” and the members can say, “Hey, these are just individuals who don’t represent AA.” And ta-dah! No one is responsible. I’m not buying it.
McGowdog:
Well? Tough titties?
May 11, 2009 at 10:00 pm
“Now we’re at least on the same page. You’ll have to excuse me for being punchy today, as AA has already been likened to “Poor delusional bastards, a religion, a cult, and Hitler.”
Well, AA was started by LSD taking bible thumper, who took the tenets of AA from a religious cult whose leader was a Nazi sympathizer. It isn’t exactly a stretch, you know.
May 11, 2009 at 9:58 pm
Well, I’m off kiddies!
I’m off to an AA meeting. I hope that doesn’t offend you all.
May 11, 2009 at 11:52 pm
McGowdog, I was actually sort of interested in what you might have to say. I too feel that when I stopped drinking I grew up, a lot, but your “Poor, delusional, bastards” post indicates that that particular experience remains on your “yet” list (I know that you have one).
May 12, 2009 at 12:21 am
“tough titties”
that’s
just
beautiful …
it’s a program of action — even when the action gets a little … ugly.
in a state that can only be described as ‘savage’,
speedy
May 12, 2009 at 2:52 am
very interesting – but stupid.
The gentleman is not delusional and he is not a bastard. Poor, perhaps. I can’t speak to that.
Delusional? No. The gentleman knows exactly what he is doing. The question is: Is his usefulness to you at an end?
he is where he wants to be. he is doing what he wants to do. he is living where he wants to live. he made his bed. let him lie in it.
May 12, 2009 at 4:49 am
Yes, H. Quite.
May 12, 2009 at 6:13 am
M A, on May 11th, 2009 at 9:54 pm Said:
I’m going out on a limb and guessing you didn’t do as well in English and Philosophy.
Reply
Gee, Hitler! I guess you’re right. But I did take a Technical Writing class and stuff, bonehead English 101 and stuff, not enough to have my own web site!
Well actually, I do have my own web site. But it’s sort of professional and not so much vulgarity and bashing people in alcohol and drug addictions recovery.
But I’m sure your parents are really proud of you nonetheless.
We have a quote for you as Bill W saw you coming from a mile away.
He said:
“We used to amuse ourselves by cynically dissecting spiritual beliefs and practices when we might have observed that many spiritually-minded persons of all races, colors, and creeds were demonstrating a degree of stability, happiness and usefulness which we should have sought ourselves.”
That’s really all you’re doing in here.
I don’t mind the cussing and stuff that you all allow here. But when you question me on my English and Philosophy education, it just invalidates your argument. There’s something to be said for content as well.
Your form on this site looks really cool; like someone has taken the time to set it up nicely. But the content is all a joke.
This is like the National Enquirer or the Jerry Springer of AA Bashers, isn’t it?
May 12, 2009 at 6:26 am
Godwin’s Law in now in effect; you have lost your argument (in addition to making something of an ass of yourself).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
Additionally, these mangled sentences:
I don’t mind the cussing and stuff that you all allow here. But when you question me on my English and Philosophy education, it just invalidates your argument. There’s something to be said for content as well.
lacking subject and predicate alignment:
http://www.uottawa.ca/academic/arts/writcent/hypergrammar/subjpred.html
simply can’t even be interpreted by English speakers.
Is English your first language?
May 12, 2009 at 12:09 pm
mcgowdoog
Go back to that nice little room of yours. You belong there. And live your little pinched and insigificant and pointless life. Eventually, it will be ‘suicide by meeting’. Instead of suicide by whiskey.
May 12, 2009 at 8:44 pm
Thank you H and AnnaZed. There. I just made you famous. And thanks for being the “lacking subject and predicate alignment” Nazi in here.
I just told my wife I’m speaking at the geriatric ward of the State Hospital here tonight.
First a joke:
Q: Why do they put the bars on the windows?
A: To keep the squirrels away from the nuts.
Badum ch.
Now, this is serious here. My wife just did this to me.
When I told her about my meeting, you know what she said?
“Oh, well it sounds like a family reunion.”
Stop it. That wasn’t funny.
May 12, 2009 at 9:26 pm
keep typing.
May 12, 2009 at 11:34 pm
My amend to you…
I was told to make an amend to you about my behavior and I suppose I owe AA an amend as well, because of breaking traditions and stuff. I was told this from people who care about me, so… I now see that it is true and I don’t want to suffer it anymore anyway.
So, here’s what I wrote on two other message boards with regards to recovery methods besides AA.
Let me know if this helps to set right the harm I’ve done here. If it’s not sufficient, I could do some more writing on it. Let me know.
Option 1: AA _______Option 2: some other recovery
I’m willing to open my mind a bit as far as Alcohol and drug recovery.
You’d have to be from another world to not have at least heard of AA.
I’m not here to defend or argue AA stats anymore.
In fact, I’m willing to agree there are other paths to seek. I’ve been to some of the anti-AA sites and discussed things with them and I think the truth of the matter is that AA is in rough shape.
It was brought to my attention that even bad-AA is still AA. AA has to be responsible for its own. So if you weigh out good AA with bad AA, it’s a mess. And AA has only AA to blame for that. If “my problems are of my own making”, then that would also mean, “Our problems are of our own making.”
I can’t even speak for AA anymore. It’s clear that I break traditions when I fight them and defend AA.
I still think (and know from my experience) the hard-lined grass-roots AA Closed meeting path is the best for me.
But if you want to try different methods, great. If you check them out, come back in here and tell us what works, what doesn’t.
My only experience is with AA, so what else do I know about other methods? Nothing.
May 13, 2009 at 12:54 am
Hi McGowdog,
Ammends respectfully acknowledged and appreciated. And thank you for the thoughtful post. In all seriousness, I have never had a discussion with an A.A. member who would acknowledge some of the things that you’ve just acknowledged—and I have to admit that I’m a little nonplussed – in a good way. Not that this was much of a discussion, considering that we picked the fight (and will probably do it again), but we definitely honor your willingness to understand what we are up to over here.
A while back, I was involved in a discussion on another message board – it turned into a debate about the effectiveness of AA, and I posted my thoughts on why I think shining a light into AA and 12-step recovery is so important – and by extension, why we started this blog. I reposted it here, if you’re interested in having a look, here’s the link: https://donewithaa.wordpress.com/2009/03/27/ok-heres-the-thing-about-alcoholics-anonymous/
Also, you’re definitely welcome here. And now that it seems maybe we’ve found some common ground, the conversation might get more interesting. I’d be interested in hearing more about your vision for AA.
Very best,
ftg
May 13, 2009 at 3:12 am
Well thanks.
I started this post as a new thread “over there” and only one guy “thanked me” for the post. The others were there to defend AA, like AA needed defending from me. He was also the one who brought my bad behavior over here to my attention.
Well I think you’re right ftg. AA has got some problems. I can compartmentalize our respective programs into my meetings and this meeting and homegroups and closed meetings and underground meetings and such; but you’re right. AA is AA.
All I can do is bring my recovery to each and every meeting I go to. If you follow the book and bring it to your own current experience, it’s an awesome program.
I will tell you about what my meetings are like and why I think it’s so effective. But it will take me a bit of time.
I got back from a speaker meeting and it went great. I spoke at the hospital for what turned out to be the forensic ward, not the geriatric ward.
I spent some time talking about what I drank like and where that took me, the many many attempts and failures to get and stay sober, then when something really changed for me… and this may sound corny to y’all, but I finally came in without hope and without a plan. I did steps and do steps yearly and the real miracle for me is this… I don’t even want to drink today and think it would take quite a lot for me to unwind and drink again.
I feel free today and have an awareness and a drive to be in the world and have fun. And I really love doing this stuff and sharing this stuff with other alkies.
That’s the basics to what I do. I’ve been sober for 5 years, 4 months and counting and I hope I go forward and never look back.
May 13, 2009 at 5:26 am
You know P. J. O’Rourke said:
“There’s a whiff of the lynch mob or the lemming migration about any over-large concentration of like-minded individuals, no matter how virtuous their cause.”
I think that may be an aspect of things that we should think about when wrlcoming visitors with differing opinions to this site and that maybe we should consider difference, grace and “open mindedness” as virtues to consider in our interactions with these guests. We should consider that they may feel overwhelmed or somehow ganged up upon. The visitor might feel disoriented and unstable, unsure what to think or believe ~ who to trust.
Yet again the whole lynch mob of lemmings thing is even more true of even the most benign AA meeting so ~ never mind!
As you were.
May 13, 2009 at 3:57 pm
What??
May 14, 2009 at 3:00 am
mcdog:
so what if you dont drink? You want a medal? You aint getting one from me. No congratulations, no attaboy. You should have quit years before you did. You were too stupid to quit. Now, you come here and brag about being a damned fool. You belong in AA.
Now, sod off.
May 14, 2009 at 5:36 pm
Well thank you H.
You can have the last word after this if you must.
I am happy to be sober today. I can let people who drink responsibly or people who drink but don’t want help alone too.
I’ve found my path and I’m gonna “carry the message to the alcoholic who still suffers” whether you like it or not.
Do you pay any more for this bandwidth in cyberspace than I do? If not, shut you hole, bitch.
May 14, 2009 at 6:26 pm
Go to hell or to a meeting. Whichever is closer, peckerwood.
November 16, 2009 at 12:31 pm
McGowdog is now spreading his poop in http://www.mentalhelp.net. Interesting to see, from here, what he is capable of. I already had a bit of a suspicion. In any case, I shall not be engaging in banter (from my rational position) for his or for anybody else’s entertainment. Pointless – that’s the word …
Best regards and thanks,
JR
November 16, 2009 at 2:08 pm
He tried the same thing on our channel over a post I made here. Blocked, and deleted.
November 16, 2009 at 11:12 pm
mcgowdog has found a home..
November 21, 2009 at 7:57 am
currently he appears to be spreading his love at http://www.sober24.com which resulted in threads being chopped up.
Troll, intolerant, my way or the highway humble too.
November 21, 2009 at 12:37 pm
As I said in May, the peckerwood can go to hell or to a meeting. Simply, delete him and his IP.