I’ve seen a number of examinations of whether AA is a cult or not, with each using criteria set by various cult experts. This one is a pretty good explanation, and I thought it was a good time to post it here, because we have recently had some feedback telling us why AA is not a cult, using such reasoning as “a person is free to leave whenever they like” or “if we were brainwashed, we would all think exactly alike”.
One trend I have noticed on our blog is AAs never rarely respond to posts such as this, and when they do so, it is with a “that is all bullshit” type of answer. I would love to hear some feedback from some of our AAs on the specific points of this article.
Is Alcoholics Anonymous a Cult? An Old Question Revisited
By
L. Allen Ragels
The “alcoholism cult.” That’s what Sheldon Bacon, for many years the director of the Rutgers Center for Alcohol Studies, called overly avid supporters of Alcoholics Anonymous. Alcoholics Anonymous – AA as it is generally known – was started in the 1930s as a spinoff from the Oxford Group, a religious movement whose ideas were sometimes alleged to help chronic drinkers. With the aid and approval of key members of the power elite such as John D. Rockefeller, Jr., AA grew from an obscure idea to what many have come to regard as a national treasure: society’s premier (practically only) way of treating alcohol, drug, and related addiction problems. By now, AA certainly must have more than a million members, with groups organized in virtually every city, town, and village, along with numerous foreign countries. Moreover, AA’s core doctrine, the famous Twelve Steps, has been adopted by hundreds of parallel organizations with programs that address problems such as gambling, overeating, emotional troubles, and related family issues. Without question, AA and the Twelve Steps are among America’s most well known and revered institutions.
Nonetheless, assertions that AA may be a cult have been present from practically the beginning. Bacon’s chiding dates from the 1940s. By the 1960s, harsher evaluations had emerged. Evaluations that were absolutely meant to be taken quite seriously and literally. “Why has AA become a cult that many men and women reverently call ‘the greatest movement since the birth of Christianity’?” AA critic Arthur Cain asked in 1963. “AA has become a dogmatic cult whose chapters too often turn sobriety into slavery to AA,” he alleged a year later.
Cult or What?
Cain, a writer and psychologist whose skirmishes with AA were documented in national magazines such as Harper’s and the Saturday Evening Post, was perhaps the loudest, but not necessarily the first, to notice AA’s resemblance to an organized cult. “We are struck by the sect or cult-like aspects of AA,” alcohologists Morris E. Chafetz and Harold W. Demone, Jr. observed in 1962. “This is true in terms of its history, structure, and the charisma surrounding its leader, Bill W[ilson].” Furthermore, Chafetz and Demone asserted that: “In our opinion AA is really not interested in alcoholics in general, but only as they relate to AA itself.”
Nor were Chafetz and Demone indisputably the first to take AA’s cult-like characteristics seriously. Nearly two decades earlier, in 1944, sociologist Robert Freed Bales noted “potentially disturbing structural features of Alcoholics Anonymous.” Features that, in the opinion of some, might suggest a cult mentality. Foreshadowing Chafetz and Demone, Bales found that AA had little appreciation for its individual members: “it mattered little just who thought the thoughts, felt the sentiments, and performed the functions characteristic of the [group’s] structure,” he noted, “as long as somebody did.” The very perceptive Bales also saw how the charismatic quality of the Program would be retained beyond the inevitable passing of its founders. More than a quarter of a century before the death of Wilson, AA’s last surviving cofounder, Bales observed that, “the ‘magic’ has been transferred to ‘The Book,’ Alcoholics Anonymous, apparently with a considerable degree of success.”
In 1964, AA again faced the charge that it harbored covert cult-like attitudes when Jerome Ellison, writing for The Nation magazine, reiterated Cain’s analyses: “Arthur H. Cain pointed out [AA’s] tendencies toward cultism and narrow orthodoxy that limited the fellowship’s therapeutic effectiveness.” Ellison also quoted from letters to the editor inspired by the Cain critique: “The fanatics who prevail in some groups seem bent on making AA into a hostile, fundamentalist religion,” one letter writer avowed.
Writing in 1989, alcohologist and cult researcher Marc Galanter found that: “From the start AA displayed characteristics of a charismatic sect: strongly felt shared belief, intense cohesiveness, experiences of altered consciousness, and a potent influence on members’ behavior. . . . As in the Unification Church workshops, most of those attending AA chapter meetings are deeply involved in the group ethos, and the expression of views opposed to the group’s model of treatment is subtly or expressly discouraged.”
The Twelve Step Alcoholism Movement
In 1979, sociologist Robert Tournier raised a ruckus in professional circles when he noted that “Alcoholics Anonymous has come to dominate alcoholism both as ideology and as method. . . . So successful have AA members been in proselytizing their ideas that their assumptions about the nature of alcohol dependence have virtually been accepted as fact by most of those in the field.” In making this assertion, Tournier touched on an important point. AA cannot be viewed as existing in a vacuum. It is not now, and never has been, an independent standalone organization. It has always covertly supported, and been supported by, a powerful cartel of organizations that make up what historians and sociologists call the Alcoholism Movement. The original triumvirate leading this movement was AA, the National Council on Alcoholism, and the Yale Center for Alcohol Studies. Like all successful social movements, it has expanded to include many additional organizations. For greater clarification, the Alcoholism Movement could be called the Twelve Step Alcoholism Movement, after the fact that its basic philosophy is closely aligned with, and in many cases openly expressed by AA’s recovery program, the venerated Twelve Steps.
To speak of AA outside of the context of the Twelve Step Alcoholism Movement is almost certainly to invite confusion. It is not just a coincidence that many organizations adhere to the same view of alcoholism and the same Twelve Step creed. It is the result of a coordinated social movement.
Viewed as the Twelve Step Alcoholism Movement, rather than as a single isolated organization, the Program actually looks more cult-like and sinister. For example, AA per se does not seem to exploit its members financially, but AA-styled treatment facilities sometimes do. Witness the case of a family faced with having to sell their home in order to pay for the mother’s long-term addiction treatment – after she had already been through nine expensive Twelve Step treatment regimens in just two years. In a similar vein, Twelve Step treatment units and professional addiction counselors may routinely advertise their wares without giving the slightest hint that the basic treatment they are offering is an indoctrination into AA.
In 1991, Harper’s Magazine printed a modernistic article on the Twelve Step Movement by David Rieff, “Victims All? Recovery, Co-dependency, and the Art of Blaming Somebody Else.” By this time, the Movement had burgeoned to include scores of “anonymous” programs that recommended AA’s Twelve Steps for practically everyone, from compulsive workaholics to those who were told that they loved too much. As Rieff observed, “any conduct that can be engaged in enthusiastically, never mind compulsively – from stamp collecting to the missionary position – would be one around which a recovery group could be organized.”
These other Twelve Step organizations are patterned after AA and share many of its characteristics. Innocuous alternatives to AA are not to be found in me-too programs such as Codependents Anonymous, Narcotics Anonymous, Cocaine Anonymous, Adult Children of Alcoholics, Al-Anon, and so on through dozens of other anonymous/anon groups that adhere to the basic Twelve Step ethos. To the degree that they mimic AA, what is said regarding AA may be universalized to apply to other Twelve Step programs.
Mind Control
Two book-length polemics directly addressing the AA-as-cult issue appeared in 1991 and 1992. The more strongly written of the two, the enigmatically titled More Revealed by Ken Ragge, bluntly portrayed AA as a mind-control cult. “The Twelve Step ‘support’ groups . . . will make every effort to convince the person he is powerless, insane, incompetent, the group is God and he must ‘work the program one day at a time,’” Ragged noted. “The most outstanding characteristic of these [AA] people is their intensely held belief in the goodness of AA and the badness of self.” The other publication, Alcoholics Anonymous: Cult or Cure by Charles Bufe, was more moderate. Bufe concluded that AA is not a cult, “though it does have dangerous cult-like tendencies.”
Neither Ragge nor Bufe seems to have been aware of a very pertinent article written in 1984 by two astute Californians, Francesca Alexander and Michele Rollins. Alexander and Rollins, both sociologists, went underground in order to understand the world of the Steps as seen through the eyes of actual group participants. “[B]oth investigators attended AA meetings over a period of several months,” they recounted. “In addition, one of the investigators actively assumed the role of an alcoholic . . . she admitted to members of an AA gathering that she was ostensibly an alcoholic in need of help. She then chose a ‘sponsor’ and began to attend both official meetings and informal social gatherings.” The result of this clandestine effort was a decisive study published in California Sociologist, “Alcoholics Anonymous: The Unseen Cult.”
Essentially, Alexander and Rollins measured AA against criteria developed by Robert J. Lifton, whose 1961 work, Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism, is a classic work on thought reform or brainwashing. Measured against Lifton’s standards, Alexander and Rollins concluded that AA is indeed a cult. “AA uses all the methods of brain washing, which are also the methods employed by cults,” they found. “It is our contention that AA is a cult.”
Based on their field notes of actual meetings, Alexander and Rollins provided illustrations of AA’s use of the thought reform techniques identified by Lifton. The specific techniques are these:
Milieu control
This category refers to group dominance over the individual’s environment. Wherever possible, the proselyte is put in a position where his or her reality will be defined and interpreted solely by other cult members. As examples of milieu control, Alexander and Rollins cited statements heard at AA meetings such as: “Don’t have any emotional entanglements (outside of AA) your first year.” And: “My first sponsor told me to change my job [and] move, told me that I should choose someone from the group to be my husband . . . ” Since they were studying AA itself, not the Twelve Step Alcoholism Movement in its entirety, Alexander and Rollins did not observe that the really intense version of milieu control is to be found in residential Twelve Step treatment facilities, where confined convalescents are routinely isolated from all outside contact for weeks or longer. Milieu control may also be found in AA’s strategy of encouraging neophytes to attend ninety meetings in ninety days. Needless to say, a proselyte who works every day, and attends AA meetings every night, will have little time for anything else.
Mystical manipulation
This technique also involves personal and social orchestrations, ofttimes through the use of ritual. AA’s rituals are not elaborate, but they do exist. Every meeting is opened and closed with a group prayer. Certain pages from AA’s basic text, its “Big Book,” are read at every meeting. Probably AA’s most powerful ritual is the well known “I am an alcoholic” confession. Any member who wishes to speak is required to first utter the phrase “My name is __________ and I am an alcoholic,” thereby affirming his or her identity with the group.
“Above all else,” Alexander and Rollins explained, “the neophyte is asked to trust the group.” As an example of mystical manipulation, Alexander and Rollins quoted a converted AA member: “I was in the same room with 3,100 sober alcoholics, all holding hands and saying the Lord’s Prayer. It was an extremely spiritual experience.” Had Alexander and Rollins been able to expand their study, reference to AA’s recommended literature would have revealed that far from being asked simply to trust the group, newcomers to AA are solemnly invited to regard the group as God. “You can if you wish, make AA itself your ‘higher power,’” an official AA publication counsels. (The phrase “higher power” being AA’s generic term for God.) You can hardly ask anyone to be more trusting than that.
Demand for purity
According to Alexander and Rollins, demand for purity has to do with always viewing one’s behavior through the lens of the group’s supposedly perfect doctrine. Since no one can achieve this level of observance, inevitable feelings of contrition and self-contempt are provoked. Among the examples Alexander and Rollins gave for this particular thought-control strategy are statements such as: “due to the pain of not following the steps, I came to the point where I do now . . . ” And: “You may not want to give [control] to anyone – that is a character defect thinking that you are that special . . . ” Demand for purity may also be found in the tenth edict of AA’s Twelve Steps: “Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.” A charge strongly suggesting that the lowly member will never completely live up to the perfection of AA’s Program.
Cult of confession
The ritual of confession, or the public admission of shortcomings, has been an important part of AA’s liturgy from the very beginning. It is a technique that AA inherited from its religious progenitor, the Oxford Group, later renamed Moral Re-armament. In fact, Robert J. Lifton himself, in his original study of thought reform methods in China, noted that a “Protestant missionary was struck by [thought reform’s] similarity with the Moral Re-armament movement in which he had been active.”
To demonstrate the occurrence of this technique, Alexander and Rollins quoted such indiscreet disclosures as: “I modeled for porno photos to get money for booze.” And: “I tried to stab people, shoot at people, hit them with a pan . . . ” In AA meetings, speakers are expected to “qualify,” or give enough of their stories to show that they, too, are “alcoholics.” In AA’s Step Program, the cult of confession is embodied in the Fifth Step: “Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.” Some groups have made it a standard practice for the novice to take this step with an AA sponsor, a senior member of the group. Of course, this is a dramatic gesture of the surrender of self to AA.
Sacred science
The sacred science stratagem evokes an aura of irrefutable, unquestionable, correctness about the group’s central dogma. AA, for example, holds itself to be in possession of certain knowledge regarding the disposition of alcoholism and the effectiveness of the Steps. Alexander and Rollins documented this by quoting members’ statements such as: “I’ve been following the steps, and the promises about what would happen are true.”
Indeed, AA seems to be a first-class example of Lifton’s observation that in thought control, proponents contend that man’s ideas (but not man) can be God. Note, however, that AA’s techniques may be subtle. “There aren’t any ‘musts’ in this program,” newcomers are told, “but there are a lot of ‘you betters.’” A major piece of AA literature, though, puts the matter more directly. Although the program is supposedly “voluntary” and the Step mere “suggestions,” AA cofounder Bill Wilson wrote that, “unless each AA member follows to the best of his ability our suggested Twelve Steps of recovery, he almost certainly signs his own death warrant . . . We must obey certain principles or we die.” Heavy stuff. Obey AA or die from drinking. The principles that must be obeyed, of course, are the invulnerable truths of Alcoholics Anonymous.
Loading the language
This refers to the technique of replacing common words with slang and clichés that are slanted to express the group’s prejudices and beliefs. Alexander and Rollins noted examples such as “He’s taking a geographic” (AA’s slang for an attempt to deal with problem drinking by moving to a new locality). And “she . . . addressed me as her baby” (AA’s belittling term for a novice). Illustrations of AA’s special lingo could practically be multiplied to infinity. For example: “Twelfth Step call” (a mission undertaken for the purpose of recruiting a new member); “old-timer” (a senior member); “bleeding deacon” (an unhappy old-timer); “stinkin’ thinkin’” (any disagreement with AA); “on a dry drunk” (being simultaneously sober and in disagreement with AA); “on the pity pot” (indulging in self-pity; not being grateful for AA) and so on. AA’s famous slogans also enter into consideration here. Slogans such as: “keep it simple”; “easy does it”; “one day at a time”; “let go and let God.”Almost everyone who has interacted with AA has been impressed by the way that these sayings manage to replace original thought, which is no-doubt why Lifton referred to their ilk as “the thought-terminating cliché.”
Doctrine over person
For practical purposes, this thought control mechanism refers to the retrospective reinterpretation of the neophyte’s past so that it conforms to the doctrines of the group. For example, Alexander and Rollins remarked on such statements as: “I find that I’m remembering little things from my past . . . that all have to do with how I became the person I was.” Likewise, it is common for AA members to say “I was an alcoholic from the first drink,” or “I was born an alcoholic.” Note how psychiatrist and Twelve Step enthusiast E. J. Khantzian reported on the progress of one of his patients: “He said he realized now that he probably was ‘an addict’ before he touched a drink.” In Khantzian’s view, that was progress; the patient was recovering. Ironically – and naively – Khantzian used this case as the basis for an article purporting to show that Alcoholics Anonymous is not a cult, although he admitted, “some aspects of AA might border on the cultish.”
In the Twelve Steps, retrospective reinterpretation is also found in the Fourth directive: “Made a fearless and searching moral inventory of ourselves.” According to Ragge, “the ‘moral inventory’ is much more than a written confession of sins. In preparation for writing out the inventory, evil is redefined according to the AA ‘world view.’ In writing, one redefines oneself, and one’s past, in the AA image.”
Dispensing existence
This is Lifton’s term for the phenomenon whereby group insiders are plainly distinguished, made to feel different, and set apart from nonmembers or outsiders. The idea that so-called alcoholics are fundamentally different from the rest of humanity is a mainstay of the Alcoholism Movement, and AA goes to great lengths to ensure that its members accept and retain their special identity. Many of AA’s rituals are aimed at reinforcing that idea. Alexander and Rollins illustrated this with quotations such as: “People not in AA are ‘Normies’” (normal people as opposed to “alcoholics”). According to Clarence Snyder, one of AA’s pioneer members, “alcoholics are different from people.”
AA members have been known to express the belief that they are a “Chosen People,” which presumably makes those who are not AA – the “Normies” – nonchosen. John C. Mellon, apparently a fervent AA member, has even written a scholarly book, Mark as Recovery Story, suggesting that Alcoholics Anonymous itself should be regarded as the second coming of Jesus Christ.
Love bombing and family substitution
To Lifton’s original eight mind control methods, Alexander and Rollins appended love bombing and family substitution. They considered these together because they found that love bombing was used as the instrument whereby family substitution could be expedited. Love bombing refers to an ostensibly absolute and unconditional acceptance offered to the proselyte. As Alexander and Rollins explained: “The neophyte is repeatedly told, ‘Only we can love you, and understand you. We are like you, and know what your life is really like. This is the only place you really belong.’” Among the illustrations cited by Alexander and Rollins are some that are particularly good examples of love bombing: “One of the incredible things about AA is the fact that you will be loved unconditionally . . . ” And family substitution: “my sponsor . . . told me that she and the others would take my sister’s place. You have to cut off from your family and turn them over to God.”
Recovery or – Mind Control?
Considering all this, is AA a cult? Does the Program rely on mind control? Those who are recovering in AA, or who have had loved ones join the Program, are understandably reluctant to see anything untoward in the organization they feel has benefitted them immeasurably. But AA has been labeled a cult, not just by its calumniators and critics, but by some of its sincerest friends and supporters. AA friend William Madsen, for example, compared AA to the nineteenth century Ghost Dance Cults and the Cargo Cults of Melanesia. George E. Vaillant, a researcher, psychiatrist and a supporter of AA acknowledged that “AA certainly functions as a cult and systemically indoctrinates its members in ways common to cults the world over.” To a certain extent, this has been recognized by AA members themselves with a witticism that has become another one of their many clichés: “If AA uses brainwashing, then our brains must need to be washed.”
Does AA use brainwashing, more properly known as mind control? Is AA a mind control environment? The answer is yes. AA uses all of the methods of mind control, which are also the methods used by cults.
NOTES AND REFERENCES
. Johnson, B. (1973). “The Alcoholism Movement in America: A Study in Cultural Innovation,” Ph.D. dissertation, University of Illinois at Urban-Champaign, page 312.
. Cain, A. (1963). “Alcoholics Anonymous: Cult or Cure?” Harper’s Magazine, February, pages 48-49. [Cain’s other works include Seven Sinners, 1961 (published under the pseudonym of Arthur King), and The Cured Alcoholic, 1964. Cain did not seem to have any respect at all for alcohol as a drug: by cured, he apparently meant a return to very heavy but controlled drinking. According to William Madsen, The American Alcoholic (1974) page 74: “I have learned from the most reliable sources that Cain’s venture ended as a tragic fiasco.” Did Cain end up drunk? Unfortunately, Madsen did not elaborate.]
. Cain, A. (1964). “Alcoholics Can Be Cured Despite AA,” Saturday Evening Post, September 19, page 6.
. Chafetz, M. & Demone, H. (1962). Alcoholism and Society, New York: Oxford University Press, page 162.
. Chafetz & Demone. (1962). Alcoholism and Society, page 165.
. Bales, R. (1944). “The Therapeutic Role of Alcoholics Anonymous as Seen by a Sociologist,” Quarterly Journal of Studies on Alcohol, Vol 5, page 271.
. Bales, R. (1944). “The Therapeutic Role of Alcoholics Anonymous,” page 267.
. Bales, R. (1944). “The Therapeutic Role of Alcoholics Anonymous,” page 268.
. Ellison, J. (1964). “Alcoholics Anonymous: Dangers of Success,” The Nation, March 2, page 214.
. Ellison, J. (1964). “Alcoholics Anonymous: Dangers of Success,” page 214.
. Galanter, M. (1989). Cults, Faith Healing, and Coercion, New York: Oxford University Press, pages 178 -185.
. Tournier, R. (1979). “Alcoholics Anonymous as Treatment and as Ideology,” Journal of Studies on Alcohol, Vol. 40, No. 3, March, page 230.
. Johnson, B. (1973). “The Alcoholism Movement in America, ”; Beauchamp, D. (1980). Beyond Alcoholism: Alcohol and Public Health Policy, Philadelphia: Temple University Press, pages 4-6, 11-13, 23.
. Ragels, L., (1996). “Prohibition, Alcoholics Anonymous, the Alcoholism Movement, and the Alcoholic Beverage Industry,” The Journal of Rational Recovery, Vol. 8, Issue 4, March/April, pages 22-24.
. Johnson, B. (1973). “The Alcoholism Movement in America. ”
. Anonymous. (1996). Journal of Rational Recovery, Vol. 8, Issue 5, May/June, page 7.
. Sheed, W. (1995). In Love With Daylight, New York: Simon & Schuster, page 93.
. Rieff, D. (1991). “Victims All? Recovery, Co-dependency, and the Art of Blaming Somebody Else,” Harper’s Magazine, October.
. Rieff, D. (1991). “Victims All? Recovery, Co-dependency, and the Art of Blaming Somebody Else,” page 54.
. Ragge, K. (1992). More Revealed, Henderson, NV: Alert!, page 163.
. Ragge, K. (1992). More Revealed, page 206.
. Ragge, K. (1992). More Revealed, page 220.
. Bufe, C. (1991). Alcoholics Anonymous: Cult or Cure? San Francisco: See Sharp Press, page 101.
. Alexander, F., Rollins, R. (1984). “Alcoholics Anonymous: The Unseen Cult,” California Sociologist, Vol. 7, No. 1, Winter, page 37.
. California Sociologist, Vol. 7, No. 1, Winter, 1984.
. Lifton. R. (1961). Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism, New York: W. W. Norton and Co.
. Alexander, F., Rollins, R. (1984). “Alcoholics Anonymous: The Unseen Cult,” page 45.
. Alexander, F., Rollins, R. (1984). “Alcoholics Anonymous: The Unseen Cult,” page 34.
. Alexander, F., Rollins, R. (1984). “Alcoholics Anonymous: The Unseen Cult,” page 42.
. Alexander, F., Rollins, R. (1984). “Alcoholics Anonymous: The Unseen Cult,” page 42.
. [Wilson, W., et al.] (1976). Alcoholics Anonymous, New York: Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc., pages 58 – 60.
. Alexander, F., Rollins, R. (1984). “Alcoholics Anonymous: The Unseen Cult,” page 35.
. Alexander, F., Rollins, R. (1984). “Alcoholics Anonymous: The Unseen Cult,” page 32.
. [Wilson, W.] (1953). Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, New York: Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc., page 27.
. Alexander, F., Rollins, R. (1984). “Alcoholics Anonymous: The Unseen Cult,” page 42.
. Alexander, F., Rollins, R. (1984). “Alcoholics Anonymous: The Unseen Cult,” page 42.
. [Wilson, W.] (1953). Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, page 88.
. Lifton, 1961, Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism, pages 455-456.
. Alexander, F., Rollins, R. (1984). “Alcoholics Anonymous: The Unseen Cult,” page 43.
. Alexander, F., Rollins, R. (1984). “Alcoholics Anonymous: The Unseen Cult,” page 43.
. [Wilson, W.] (1953). Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, page 55.
. Alexander, F., Rollins, R. (1984). “Alcoholics Anonymous: The Unseen Cult,” page 43.
. Lifton. R. (1961). Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism, page 428.
. [Wilson, W.] (1957). Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age, New York: Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc., page 119.
. Alexander, F., Rollins, R. (1984). “Alcoholics Anonymous: The Unseen Cult,” page 43.
. Alexander, F., Rollins, R. (1984). “Alcoholics Anonymous: The Unseen Cult,” page 43.
. Lifton. R. (1961). Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism, page 429.
. Alexander, F., Rollins, R. (1984). “Alcoholics Anonymous: The Unseen Cult,” page 43.
. Khantzian, E. (1995). “Alcoholics Anonymous – Cult or Corrective: A Case Study,” Journal of Substance Abuse Treatment, Vol. 12, No. 3, May/June, page 158.
. Khantzian, E. (1995). “Alcoholics Anonymous – Cult or Corrective,” page 161.
. [Wilson, W.] (1953). Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, page 42.
. Ragge, K. (1992). More Revealed, page 165.
. Alexander, F., Rollins, R. (1984). “Alcoholics Anonymous: The Unseen Cult,” page 44.
. Kurtz, E. (1979). Not-God: A History of Alcoholics Anonymous, Center City, MN: Hazelden Educational Services, page 238.
. Kurtz, E. (1979). Not-God: A History of Alcoholics Anonymous, page 238.
. Mellon, J. (1995). Mark as Recovery Story, Chicago: University of Illinois Press.
. Alexander, F., Rollins, R. (1984). “Alcoholics Anonymous: The Unseen Cult,” page 37.
. Alexander, F., Rollins, R. (1984). “Alcoholics Anonymous: The Unseen Cult,” page 44.
. Alexander, F., Rollins, R. (1984). “Alcoholics Anonymous: The Unseen Cult,” page 44.
. Madsen, W. (1974). “Alcoholics Anonymous as a Crisis Cult, Alcohol Health and Research World, National Clearinghouse for Alcohol Information, Spring, pages 27-30.
. Vaillant, G. (1995). The Natural History of Alcoholism Revisited, Cambridge: Harvard University Press, page 266.
. Alexander, F., Rollins, R. (1984). “Alcoholics Anonymous: The Unseen Cult,” page 45.
December 23, 2009 at 3:59 pm
Fatuous Drivel??? If it’s fatuous, I would think someone like you, would have no problem simply disregarding it. As it is however…..H has his butt cheeks pinched so tight in anger….he could pull a tractor down the street with a guitar string. LOL!!!
And symbiotic means…..a mutually beneficial relationship. It’s almost always….a good thing. Our current relationship could be seen as symbiotic. I know I’m enjoying it.
December 23, 2009 at 5:40 pm
You probably find the relationship between leeches, cockroaches, and their hosts to be symbiotic, as well.
December 23, 2009 at 4:02 pm
keep typing, kevin
December 23, 2009 at 5:41 pm
Or not.
December 23, 2009 at 7:58 pm
Raysny…I’m sticking by what I said. You are lying…not that honesty has much of a following on this site. If you were a MAN and you saw this….your story would have included what you did to stop it. Mine sure would have. I can honestly say I have NEVER stood by silently while another human being was abused. I’m sure you haven’t either.
Now let me tell you about all the wonderful things the Medical Community has done for me. If I had to rate most of the treatment centers I have been in on a scale of 1 to 10, they would all get a -8 because they essentially did more harm than good.
There are far more nurse Ratchetts in the field of Substance Abuse than there are Dr. Phils.
In 1996 after 16 years of good sane AA Recovery, I fell off a telephone pole and broke my neck.
By the time I got through 4 major reconstructive surgeries I was hopelessly addicted to opiate pain medications. I stayed that way for 4 years. Wanting to get off of them I went to see my pain Doc for help. Unfortunately the same “Medical Professional” who had spent three years prescribing boat loads of Oxycontin for me, couldn’t see his way clear to prescribing 7 days worth of Atavan, to help me through the withdrawals. So I voluntarily placed myself in a treatment center for detoxification.
By the second day they had me taking 5 pills a day, two of which were usually used on patients with severe bipolar disorder. I have never been diagnosed as either depressed or bipolar. Trying to talk was like attempting to push words out of a toothpaste tube. I told my room mate I wasn’t going to take them anymore. He warned me that they would use that as a means to get a county commitment and milk my insurance company. Apparently that is what had happened to him and he had been there 60 days.
I told the nurses I was done taking their pills and they sent me to a consult with the Head Psychiatrist. 20 minutes later I was being told by some strange foreign woman with bad English and a red dot on her forehead, that I had better take my pills or they would have to have me committed. 45 minutes later I had climbed the fence, hitched a ride, and was on my way back to Corpus Christi.
The only TREATMENT that I received there ($12,000 for 72 hours) was two one hour undirected group sessions where the chain smoking facilitator watched her watch while counting off the seconds until her next smoke break.
I filed a complaint with the Texas State Medicals Examiners office. Not only was it successful but they told me there were 10 other similar complaints filed against that treatment facility that year. They were over medicating patients to allow them to control more clients with less staff…….there by increasing the profitability of their hospital.
I have heard similar horror stories from dozens of people over the years. Try to get someone help in ANY city without insurance or funding and see what happens. At least AA is free. If you want to dedicate your life to fixing something…..and you are a Medical Professional….how about you clean your own side of the street.
Since 1970 I have been in 5 treatments centers and they were all virtually the same. Usually they had a couple of the “fixer” types who thought they could talk you out of being an addict and then there were the 8 to 5 types who couldn’t honesty give a sh*t less what happened to you. So don’t give me a bunch of altruistic BS about working in the “Medical Field.” Most of you “Medical Professional” types are worst than Fundamentalist Evangelicals when it comes to useless information and dogma.
December 23, 2009 at 8:48 pm
Makes no difference what you claim, that phase is well known, apparently by everyone but you. These practices are well known, it shows there is something wrong with your version of reality. Even hard core steppers will admit to these practices while trying to make excuses for them, denying they occur discredits all you have to say.
Your Great Escape scenario must wow them in the rooms, but having experienced countless drug- and drunk-alogues in the rooms I know to give your story the same respect I give bar tales. (Hey, it’s just an alcoholic talking, right?)
So you had a problem with a medical facility, that has no bearing on our discussion, nor does that have anything to do with me or my truthfulness. I said I am a mental health care worker, not a medical professional.
December 23, 2009 at 8:05 pm
None of that has anything to do with this site or AA.
Just exactly what does that have to with calling Ray Smith a liar?
December 23, 2009 at 10:10 pm
I’m sorry raysna…….I thought you had inferred, by your earlier comments, that you were a professional. Why else would you bring your vocation into the discussion??? Forgive me for giving you credit you obviously did not deserve. As for my story wowing them in AA. I don’t ever mention my drug addiction in AA. That would be inappropriate and unnecessary. AA is for alcoholics. I don’t really talk much at all at meetings. I save the jabber jawing for my poor sponsees.
Well….I’m making fudge. (Native Pecan and Walnut). I’d give you some if you was here. I’ll let you return to whatever it is you think you are doing here. I hope you will be big enough to allow an old “AA dick” to wish you a very Merry Christmas and a Prosperous New Year.
For what it’s worth to you…I’ve always left the boys with probation papers….alone. I could never understand why everyone made such a fuss over them. I mean..of all the people at a meeting…they are the MOST likely to come back. They have to. LOL!!! I wouldn’t want AA foisted on myself, or anyone else against their will. So…..to the best of my ability I will go forth and make sure THAT never happens. You have accomplished that at least.
December 23, 2009 at 10:49 pm
I’m a paraprofessional, and I work mostly with clients who have a history of substance abuse.”Credit I don’t deserve”? I happen to be trained to provide alcohol and drug treatment using evidence based practices that yield a higher success rate than AA.
It’s not just a fuss about people with probation papers, people are mandated to AA by all sorts of government agencies or employee assistance programs. Over 60% of new members arrive under some sort of mandate, and I’d venture that the majority of the rest didn’t join without being pushed into it and any attraction they may feel for the program is based on false advertising.
You joke about your “poor sponsees”, but I feel for them. You come across as an AAhole who brags about knowledge of addiction coming from the School of Hard Knocks and AA.
As far as your passive aggressive bullshit, calling me a liar then inviting me for fudge, I think you can imagine what I’d tell you to do with your fudge.
Now if you ever decide to engage in a civil conversation, I’ll be around. But next time bring some facts to the table and not just petty taunts.
Oh yeah, have a nice Christmas.
December 23, 2009 at 11:52 pm
See…..now….don’t you feel better??
So now you’re a paraprofessional?? Come on….give me this one last dig. Here it comes. What’s that?? A sky diving drug councilor?? LOL!!!
But honestly. I’ll admit to being an asshole…..just don’t blame it on AA. I’ve always been an asshole. I came by it naturally. I learned it from my Dad….who was a professional asshole. Now…he wasn’t a skydiving professional ass hole like some people I know…but he was definitely and asshole.
And passive aggressive. Not hardly. Just plain old aggressive. I’ve worked construction all my life. It came with the territory.
I am honestly sorry if I ruffled your feathers…….so much. I owe a lot to AA. Right or wrong….I am going to defend it. I mean…my wife can be a major irritant…..but you wouldn’t want to say that in front of me. The same goes for AA.
And, so I admit…I was totally out of line. Showed my ass, I did. I should probably be totally embarrassed. But…I am not. What I don’t understand is why you feel you have to trash us….or anyone for that matter. I mean…..if you have truth on your side….shouldn’t your path be clear enough without trying to clear the trail behind you. That’s what I don’t get.
My Holiday wishes are sincere…believe it…or don’t. I’ll pray for all of us. Perhaps in the coming year we’ll lose our taste for conflict….and learn to get along.
My religion….is existentialism. The theistic type. In my belief system…we both sought this encounter as an opportunity act out our particular destiny. Neither of us can blame the other for what has occurred here…..because we both……as individuals…chose it. You do understand that….don’t you??
December 24, 2009 at 12:28 am
Kevin — what you type and why you type it is your business and your responsibility. I will not take the time and trouble to humor you.
I am done with you.
December 24, 2009 at 1:00 am
When AA adheres to its tradition of “attraction rather than promotion”, a lot of us won’t feel the need to target AA. If people were coerced into the Moonies or Scientology, I’d be speaking out against them. (BTW, they both claim a higher success rate for alcoholism than AA and they might be right. Doesn’t make it acceptable.)
AA may not have turned you into an asshole, but assholes thrive in AA. Bragging about it doesn’t show humility, guess that must be one of those character flaws your Higher Power hasn’t deemed to remove, huh? And for your sponsees’ sake, do you know the difference between humility and humiliation? I ask because most the the braggart sponsors I’ve met don’t seem to know there is a difference.
How long do you think an AA site would put up with one of us showing up? Instant banishment, we’re dangerous because we’re speaking the truth, backed up with stats & studies, facts & figures. The folks that run this site allow AA members to come here because as long as there is discussion, there’s a chance people might learn something. We didn’t come up with the slogan “there are none too dumb for the aa program but many are too smart”.
(BTW: you can find that and the ‘taking the cotton’ at:
http://www.aabibliography.com/12_step_acronyms_and_12_step_slogans.htm , a pro-AA site)
I’m quite used to AA members who believe they know everything who are happy to tell me about it. Takes more than that to ruffle my feathers, I deal with your kind a lot, online and real life. I only respond in kind; talk to me civilly and you’d receive civility in return; act like an asshole and be treated as one. Maybe you did learn it from your dad, still no excuse. Even if you are retired, looks to me like you have some growing up to do. Not an easy thing when you continue to surround yourself with people who will put up with your nonsense.
“Right or wrong….I am going to defend it.” That says a lot. You don’t care that many who try AA and fail end up worse for their exposure to powerlessness, the disease theory, ego-deflation, 13th stepping, and a litany of other abuses? “Some must die so that others of us might live” right? Or haven’t you heard that one either? Don’t try to tell me “it happens everywhere” because in other places where adults congregate, people speak out when they see these things happen. In AA, people are too afraid to rock the boat, to question the magic of the program.
AA is a combination of faith healing, magical thinking, and peer pressure. That kind of confrontational approach works for a minute few. You must be one of them, because you responded to it, and now mirror it. Telling me I don’t know what I’m talking about only shows your own ignorance on the subject.
Why not take a trip down to your local library and read something about recovery that isn’t from Hazelden or pro-AA? I’d suggest Fingarette’s “Heavy Drinking: The Myth of Alcoholism as a Disease”. You might learn something.
December 24, 2009 at 1:16 am
H…even if you COULD control whether or not you responded again…..which you can’t…..you wouldn’t be done with me. I’d be living rent free inside your head for days….and you know it. So here’s what I can do for you.
I’ll admit I wronged you….intentionally. I deduced a tender spot on your ego and zoomed right in on it. It didn’t take a genius to figure out how to do that and It was pretty low of me to do it. For that I am truly sorry….and publicly apologize.
December 24, 2009 at 11:06 am
kevin, you are a poltroon.
You are not a bully, you do not have the belly for it.
December 24, 2009 at 1:30 am
How funny. I actually own the book. I also own, two almost identical thesis, by Christians who make the same argument…only their conclusion was that the core of the problem is sin and a lack of discipline. Honestly…these aren’t new concepts. Fingarette’s book has been around since 1988. That’s a lot of years and a lot of peer reviews for a book virtually no one has ever heard of. Thanks for the advice though. After 30 some odd years of living with this dilemma, or disease, or character fault, whatever you want to call it….I’ve honestly given up trying to understand it. It’s like trying to wrap your brain around something as inexplicable as war. It’s enough that I knowledge it as part of my destiny. Anything more is just mental gymnastics
December 24, 2009 at 3:15 am
You own it, but did you read it? It explains what does and doesn’t work in AA, backed with statistics and facts, fully footnoted.
December 24, 2009 at 2:22 am
By the way raysny…just so that we keep the record straight. Condescension is ALSO a symptom of arrogance. It would seem we are two peas in a pod. The only difference is……I’ll admit it.
December 24, 2009 at 3:13 am
See my above post about responding in kind.
December 24, 2009 at 4:25 am
Sure I read it. But it’s been years ago. What interested me most at the time was this question. What motivated those people who jumped on his Band Wagon??? Remember this was during the big (albeit short) trend in the field of co-dependency. It seemed that the prevailing notion at the time was that everyone was some kind of victim and nobody was responsible for what they did. We were all just sick.
Maybe people in the field finally became troubled with the notion that alcoholics in AA were escaping responsibility for THEIR actions. This isn’t true of course, but unless you factor in the occasional duality of human behavior it would certainly be easy to make that mistake.
It’s truly ironic that you chose Fingarette’s book to defend your position. You do realize that prior to this trend in psychology most insurance companies paid for in house treatment facilities. Alcoholism in the 70’s and 80’s was big business and research was being funded with money by the bucket loads. After they stopped referring to alcoholism as a disease and began using the term alcohol abuse…it was just one easy step further for the government, and the insurance companies, to make massive cuts in the funds they made available for treatment. The end result was a larger number of alcoholics being outsourced to FREE programs like AA.
I wonder what his primary motivator was. There are many who think the alcoholic should spend the rest of their sober lives wrapped in shame. Don’t get me wrong. He did his research…but everybody is motivated by something. Most people who feel this way have suffered violence at the hands of an alcoholic. This was a huge stumbling block for me personally. As I mentioned earlier, my father was a real prick…and a psychotic violent one at that. Classifying my own alcoholism as a disease meant that I had to rethink my opinion of that drunken bastard. It was not an easy thing to do.
Today, I don’t pay anymore attention to the likes of Fingarette than I do the people who say that “if alcoholism is a disease then I guess Jesus died on the cross for nothing.” It’s basically the same premise made from another point of view. I don’t know what alcoholism is but I’m damn sure I got it.
If someone else can find another better way to deal with it……more power to him. I’ve done all the research on alternatives that I plan to do. For better or worse AA works. For me to go out seeking another way, would be like playing Russian Roulette with a revolver that has 8 full chambers and one empty. I just don’t like the odds.
December 24, 2009 at 5:47 am
Why would you have to rethink your father at all? He passed the alcoholic gene onto you and you got the disease. It fits in neatly with AA thought. Hogwash. You became an alcoholic because at some point you drank too much consistently and became addicted.
You feel AA worked for you, so you’ll continue to spread the word, sponsoring people in a program that harms more than it helps. You don’t care about other people because you got yours. You don’t care to examine any other methods because you’re afraid that seeing facts about AA might cause you to be struck drunk. And you call other methods, evidence based practices playing Russian roulette while pushing AA, the alcoholism treatment method with the highest mortality rate.
The whole thing about government funding is a distraction. Gorski described it well, the only reason to call alcoholism a disease is for funding:
http://www.tgorski.com/gorski_articles/disease_model_of_addiction_010704.htm
I’ll refresh your memory on Fingerette:
http://www.indiana.edu/~engs/cbook/chap6.html
Of course insurance companies don’t want to pay for 12step treatment, it’s a joke. Thousands of dollars to tell people they need AA. Each time. I believe the average is 4.2 times through rehab before people “get it”. People do a better job of stopping when they are motivated and determined to stop. AA just wants to hang onto them until they get to that point and claim it as an AA success.
You want to talk about funding for rehabs? How about the sneaky way Patrick Kennedy and his AA-sponsor Jim Ramstad tacked a provision to guarantee payment for 12step rehabs into the Mental Health Parity Bill, then shoved the whole thing through in the bail-out bill? Pretty slick two-hatters you got there.
AA has been intertwined with American politics since Marty Mann, and ex-PR woman started the National Council on Alcoholism, pushing AA.
I believe the most damaging thing that AA has done to date is convince the public that alcoholism is a disease and people cannot get sober on their own, when 80% do exactly that. People should be empowered in order to make healthy choices, we do that by educating people, not handing them some quasi-religious claptrap. And it has spread, everything is now a disease with a 12step group for it. See Peele’s “Diseasing of America” or Kaminer’s “I’m Dysfunctional, You’re Dysfunctional”.
I recently saw a video where the chief medical director at Hazelden denounce the use of anti-craving medications because they don’t fit into the “spiritual disease” teachings. Why even bother studying alcoholism if AA is the perfect program? Let’s all just study the first 164 pages of the BB and the world would peachy.
Of course AA members are escaping responsibility, that’s one of, if not the most attractive aspects of AA, “It’s not my fault I drink, I’m an alcoholic and that’s what we do., I have a disease”. I couldn’t get sober until I got away from AA and took responsibility for my addiction so that I could take responsibility for my recovery.
December 24, 2009 at 12:27 pm
I’m sure that most of the regulars here are aware of this, but regarding that treatment boom of the seventies and eighties that Kevin mentioned, no one was more responsible for that than AA member and super-promoter, Senator Harold Hughes.
He continued his promotional efforts well after he was out of office.
“We are full-fledged American citizens who have survived a disease. We need to declare our recoveries and stand up for the urgent need to treat this disease. And please don’t start with the anonymity issue: The Traditions refer to disclosing AA membership at the level of press, radio, TV and film. There’s nothing in any of the Traditions that says we have to be anonymous as recovering people. We need to get out on the battlefield and tell America that we got well.”
Harold Hughes, 1994
http://www.well.com/user/woa/harolde.htm
December 24, 2009 at 6:39 am
Well I just finished wrapping Christmas Presents and boxing up the fudge and banana bread I made. Me and the Labrador are headed for bed.
Listen raysny. Sometimes we have a pretty big blind spot when it comes to seeing ourselves as we really are. Do have any idea how bitter you are???? I’m serious friend. You sound awful. Maybe it’s the one dimensionality of the written word….but you come across as an absolutely miserable soul. I don’t think this AA thing is really your problem. I mean…dude…in the totality of life…it’s a tiny, little, thing. Your angst is way disproportionate to the situation. You might want to talk to someone……seriously.
December 24, 2009 at 7:45 am
The man who has been digitally screaming at me accuses me of being bitter. Surprised you didn’t say angry. Or a dry drunk.
I get to deal with folks after AA chews them up and spits them out. My feelings about AA are not disproportionate to the amount of misery AA has inflicted on my clients so far and my future clients. I have zero respect for those who push AA and sponsors in general. You have no facts, only a claim that AA works because it “worked” for you, that’s nothing more than a testimonial. If testimonials were true, I’d be busy making thousands of dollars a day working three hours on the internet instead of talking with you. I believe in my own experiences and facts, not testimonials of people, especially when I can’t even look them in the eye.
You imagine that I have a miserable life because you can’t imagine a real life outside the rooms. Your loss, not mine. I have important work, a rewarding volunteer job, I’m married to a woman I fell in love with over 30 years ago, I get to live in the mountains where I see wildlife on a daily basis, and after struggling with depression for decades I’ve had it under control for several years now. Life is good.
I’m not the one who came here spoiling for a fight, but I also didn’t come here to back down from one. Your taunts and petty insults show the type of man you are. You’re a bully, a self-described asshole who thinks that he should have automatic respect for simply quitting drinking. You can’t argue with facts, so you have to go for personal attacks. I’m sure being a bully boy in the rooms works for you, but it doesn’t wash here (probably not for you in real life either).
December 24, 2009 at 9:23 am
God AAers are dicks.
December 24, 2009 at 11:07 am
Tippy, he is all hat no cattle.
December 24, 2009 at 1:52 pm
Some are proud to be called dicks.
December 24, 2009 at 2:26 pm
At the end of the day, they are a no show. Basically, poltroons.
December 24, 2009 at 3:59 pm
The proof is in the truth. When AA’s learn about the truth of the AA program, they leave. The AA programming can be dangerous to the true believer and those who would listen. My favorite resource is the propaganda reference of The Orange Papers.
Beware the self fulfilling prophecy of the dark promise; jails, institutions, OR death.
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html
December 24, 2009 at 4:33 pm
LAAME, you are correct.
December 24, 2009 at 7:28 pm
I thought that we discussed here that Bill Wilson never said anything about Jails, Institutions or Death as a result of not going to AA. Somebody is more than welcome to shew us where this was said, but it was not Bill W.
Debating Technique #5 is to put words into your opponents mouth and then use those words against the opponent.
Again Bill never said it. It was a fabrication concocted by Orange to add substance to every other fabrication he created without merit.
In short, the truth is really boring. Since it’s really boring it doesn’t sell too well and isn’t worthy of discussion. Therefore we need to spice it up by creating half truths and outright lies. Since we have no actual fact to back up our statement we create a diversion by pointing out character flaws of someone that’s been dead for 40 years. Then we need to point out that Bill died from all those cigarettes he smoked. Why didn’t God help him quit smoking?? Since God didn’t help Bill quit smoking, AA doesn’t work.
Maybe Bill should go down in history as the biggest strawman of them all.
AA kills people because Bill cheated on his wife. AA drives people to suicide because Bill has a stupid haircut!
AA does not believe that girls should have sex anywhere other than a back seat in a bar parking lot. If they do then it must be AAs fault. Once they walk into AA they can blame their lack of values on AA . If they have sex in the back seat of a car outside an AA meeting it’s the fault of AA. Then they can go see Ray and tell him how AA took away their virginity and made them want to cut their wrists.
Orange said that alcoholics are responsible for themselves and their decisions for their lives. Orange said that Alcoholics are not powerless and we can make choices that affect the rest of our lives. This must be true since Orange said it. “Hail Orange”
Why do we then turn into mindless mush brained zombies when we walk into AA?
Is it “Powerless of Convenience” or do alcoholics naturally like to blame their problems on others.
I think it’s the latter. Again the real truth doesn’t sell too well.
December 25, 2009 at 1:19 am
Did someone accuse Bill Wilson of originating that saying? If so, probably because it has been repeated so often for so long in the rooms of AA that it sounds like a Wilson original. It is curious that you accuse others of putting words into their opponents mouths, and then do exactly that, at length.
December 25, 2009 at 1:49 am
I was adding lib. You must admit that Bill Wilson and his actions whether real or false has little or no bearing on anything. Unfortunatley the incessant need to bring up the past in regards to Bill Wilson are the only thing that closley resembles fact. Although hard to prove as fact. Even if it is actual fact, Bill is dead. Let’s move on.
Call Orange and tell him that 90% of his web site is irrelevant ancient history and the other 10% is fabricated from skewed and manipulated statistics.
Of course when there is absolutley no substance to back up anything presented it becomes much easier to attack the messanger than the actual message.
I’m trying to do you guys a favor. If you insist on arming yourselves with false information to fuel your debate others might view you as foolish. I can’t let you do that to yourselves.
I call it “Service Work” so there’s no need to thank me.
December 25, 2009 at 3:14 am
Thanks for the service work. I do not think all that ill of Wilson. He was ne’er do well who had a hard life. And, drank a good deal more than he should have. So, “just like any other man, only more so”.
As for Orange: you tell him. he will be glad to print it.
“If you want what we have”. I didn’t.
December 25, 2009 at 3:23 am
Bill Wilson’s actions, and character, have everything to do with the nature of AA today. He was paid well to write it, then essentially copied it, , falsely claimed himself as sole author of it, stole the copyright to it, made a nice living promoting it, then spent the last twenty years or so of his life collecting the royalties off it. Would you similarly argue that Hitler has little, if any relevance when considering the National Socialists, anti-semites and Skinheads of today? Your rationale is the same.
You are ad-libbing (a nice word for lying, in your case) Orange’s claims, references, and facts, as well. In fact, you are attacking that messenger. You have been doing us “favors” for a very long time, much like a Klan endorsement of a political candidate. Thanks, but no thanks. Go service someone else.
December 25, 2009 at 3:48 am
We’ve already been over this. “Jails, institutions, and death” first appeared in NA literature, but has found it’s way into the rooms and some of the readings.
Big whoop, finding one error from one person who claimed it came from Wilson discredits this whole site? It is a common enough phrase in AA that I’ve heard it hundreds of times in AA rooms.
And how exactly does that justify 13th stepping? Yes, I have had to counsel a young woman who slashed her wrists after being 13th stepped then discarded like a used tissue. Luckily, she also took a handful of downers which slowed her metabolism enough that she didn’t bleed out before she was found. Last I heard, the guy who 13th stepped her is still a big shot in the rooms, while she became a joke.
Orange simply said what most of us were feeling, he wasn’t the first person to denounce powerlessness. This has always been a “pull yourself up by your bootstraps” nation. AA turns people into victims, “it’s not my fault I drank heavy for so long and became an alcoholic, I have a disease.”
No, people don’t relapse because ol’ Bill was a womanizer, a liar, a thief, or a smoker, but all these things give a thinking person a reason to question his “spiritual program”. And understanding the history gives people insight on how AA came to be what it is today.
“…creating half truths and outright lies…”
You have got to be joking. AA critics don’t need to lie, they have facts & figures on their side, what you have is faith. You disregard any proof that what you believe is wrong.
You and others attack Orange because he made himself a big old target, but none of you can point out any of his so-called lies. Most of his AA history comes from pro-AA sites and literature, and he footnotes where his information comes from so your accusations carry no weight. You come here to bitch about him, why not take it to the man himself? You don’t because you know deep down he’s right and you hate him for it.
December 24, 2009 at 8:15 pm
great rant. cuda.
keep typing
December 25, 2009 at 9:12 am
Yes i totally agree , a/a was an experience to me, just like raysny i 13th stepped many women/girls and thoroughly enjoyed it,but a/a wasn’t for me in the end, i saw the error of my ways and went on to become sober and free from the cult of a/a.
It’s a wonderful life today to be free of american a/a bull.
December 26, 2009 at 5:10 pm
Why would “jails institutions, death” need to be a Wilsonian statement to be a damaging part of AA? I just assumed everything that happens in “the rooms” is part of AA. (smirk, AA debate technique.)
The AA tradition clearly protects the contrary and inconsistent magical gibberish program from taking any responsibility or stand.
December 27, 2009 at 3:47 am
I’m a bit lost among all this back-and-forthness between AA people and others, not knowing much about it.
But as stated on a previous post, I am very pissed off about paying $10,000 dollars for a “holistic recovery treatment” program for my seriously alcoholic partner which omitted to tell me that the “cure” was in the end about praying to God and achieving a spiritual awakening to guarantee that cure.
If AA people have found sobriety and happiness within AA, good luck to them. I have no problem with that, if that’s their preferred way to stop drinking. But the 12-step program should have no legitimacy or credence for any respectable, scientific medical practictioners in the field of addiction, and should *never* be recommended by them without a full assessment of its actual efficacy and success rates. And patients and their families should in all honesty be told in advance of what the 12-step program actually involves before people are directed towards it.
One thought – AA might be more effective if it encouraged its members to embrace Islam. There they would get a very respectable and respected monotheistic religion (rather than a made-up cultish one) with all its spiritual aspects. And Islam also has a prohibition on alcohol! What more could AA wish for its members? (I mean this quite seriously.)
Meanwhile, those of us of an atheistic persuasion who hoped to get some kind of rational treatment for our money are left very disappointed.
More power to your elbow, raysny, and thanks to all for this site. It has restored me to sanity.
December 27, 2009 at 4:47 pm
Wow! $10,000.00 for AA? What a rip off! You could recover in Hawaii for 2 months on that! Live on the beach in a nice hotel, go to AA meetings for free if you want. Instead most people go to some ugly poo-chute hospital in Pasadena.
There is one statement in all the AA crap that makes sense; it is “the man must decide for himself.”
Most people I know end up in AA to escape from family or legal trouble.
The world needs to know the truth about the options.
If you like to drink, go to Hawaii and perfect this…
http://hamsnetwork.org/
December 27, 2009 at 5:02 pm
The positive thing 12step rehabs do is remove a person from the people and places associated with substance use for 28 days or so. The rest is confusing and contradictory busywork.
December 27, 2009 at 11:54 pm
Can I get someone sober to babysit me in Hawaii for 28 Days?
I have $10,000 cash.
2 rooms and flight for 26 day stay $4,272.33
(breakfast included in hotel) expedia.com
Meals and transportation @ $50 a day $1300.00
$5572,33 expense for TWO PEOPLE
$4427.67 profit for babysitter. ($170.00 a day)
Or share a room @ $2,706.14 and clear $5993.86 or ($230.00 a day)
If not, it’s OK. I’ll go alone, subject myself to 52 meetings in 26 days, and spend the rest of my time on the beach and at the burger shack.
December 28, 2009 at 1:49 am
I’ll MAKE time.
December 27, 2009 at 6:44 pm
Hamshrn.org is good.
Basically, it is up tp the individual.
Some options:
Hamshrn.org
SMART Recovery
LifeRing
SOS
Women for Sobriety.
December 27, 2009 at 4:03 am
Well, human spirit, there is not very much that is rational about 12 step. It is , basically, faith healing.
December 27, 2009 at 5:03 am
H –
Yes, but it doesn’t even do any healing! What worried me about the rehab place my boyfriend was in, with all its evangelical religious stuff, was that this was exactly the kind of absolute bollocks that would drive any sane person back to drinking!
With the general insistence on the 12-step program, what hope is there for the alcoholic with a basically rational and scientific mind?
You might be getting there across the pond, but here in the UK (unless you have a lot of money), it’s AA programs or nothing. It absolutely sucks.
December 27, 2009 at 5:09 am
I know. It is, basically, a cop out. For treatment centers, it is taking the easy way out. With 12 step, no thinking is required. By anyone.
December 27, 2009 at 5:32 am
Cheers, H
No thinking – and equally no investment for the local authorities involved !
You don’t know how much it means to me to know there are other rational people out there.
Stella
December 27, 2009 at 11:33 am
There are. On either side of the site are links to yahoo talkboards and other good links.
AA no longer has a free pass.
February 18, 2010 at 4:45 am
I am in AA and I am willing to admit that it is a cult. The thing is, it’s a relatively harmless cult. Oh sure there are AA people who freak out and kill themselves but aren’t there unstable people everywhere?
I do get tired of a lot of the stuff though. I basically just take what I need and dump the rest.
And regarding brainwashing, some people NEED to be brainwashed. But I do think the courts should have something to offer besides AA. Unfortunately, other groups meet too infrequently to compete with AA’s huge monopoly as a support group.
February 18, 2010 at 12:02 pm
Hi DJ,
If AA were harmless, we would not have started this blog. Taking away a person’s ability to think for themselves is bad enough (notice you used variations of two slogans in four sentences), but the harm AA does in other ways is much worse. The suicide example you used is a good one. There are people who kill themselves anyway, true. There are also people who receive real, proper, qualified psychological counseling who are saved from suicide. AA provides none of that, but it does provide pseudo-counceling from unqualified, and often unstable people. This is but one example of it doing much more harm than good.
I’m happy you have the ability see some of the AA nonsense for what it is, but let me assure that your brain did not need washing for you to quit drinking. The credit for that belongs to you. You should feel proud of yourself.
February 19, 2010 at 3:08 pm
I tolally agree with M A .we do not need any brainwashing that is such a scik jargon used in those rooms. No if anything its reconditioning your mind with a postive set of beliefs//
D J how can you take what you need and leave the rest? Another jargon BS saying. You have the within power to quit addiction I did. I worked on my issues and guess what i am clean by choice. What a concept. AA is wrong in so many ways. Being an EX AAer is the best thing that has ever happen to me and believe me i have no problem voicing that. . To experince the AA and have the backbone to question it. I have learned on my own how destructive AA is and when you or if you walk away from AA those so-called friends will shun you too..You got to be in their “club”
February 18, 2010 at 3:02 pm
DJ writes:
“Unfortunately, other groups meet too infrequently to compete with AA’s huge monopoly as a support group.”
That’s still buying into the lie that people NEED a group in order to quit. 80% of people quit without any type of treatment or program.
Convince people that they need a group and they’ll end up in AA because of the stranglehold they have on treatment.
February 18, 2010 at 9:29 pm
Troubled people need validation, hope, and positive support, which AA purports to provide. The reality soon morphs into something much different, and the cost of the “free” progam quickly escalates. Most of us are also social animals, and crave the company of others. AA provides all the company one can stand, and then some. I believe many ignore AA’s lessor qualities because of the social opportunities it provides to those who would otherwise be alone.