An open question to steppers, as-yet uncommitted 12×12 practitioners, non 12×12 practicing AA members, 12×12 critical types, interested lay-persons, theologians, string theorists, richard dawkins, etc.:
Explain the qualitative differences (or similarities if you choose) between the following set of quotations:
Membership & Damnation New Testament style:
- “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. […] Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already.” – John 3:16-18
- “[Everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven,] but anyone who blasphemes against the the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.” Luke 12:10
- “Whosever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit can never have forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin.” Mark 3:29
Membership & Damnation AA style:
- “So the hand of Providence early gave us a sign that any alcoholic is a member of our Society when he says so.” – William Griffith Wilson, “Tradition Three”, 12 Steps & 12 Traditions, pg. 145 (Note the un-capitalized ‘h’ in “he” – very dissimilar to the ‘God’/’He’/’Him’/’Power of Your Understanding’ in the rest of the literature.)
- “To be doomed to an alcoholic death or to live on a spiritual basis are [sic] not always easy alternatives to face. […] But after a while we had to face the fact that we must find a spiritual basis of life—or else.” William Griffith Wilson, “We Agnostics,” Alcoholics Anonymous, pg. 44
- “Unless each A.A. member follows to the best of his ability our suggested Twelve Steps to recovery, he almost certainly signs his own death warrant.” William Griffith Wilson, “Tradition Nine”, 12 Steps & 12 Traditions, pg. 177 (again, note the un-capitalized ‘h’ in “he.”)
The common formula (IMHO – humility at all times!) seems to be:
1) Believe (e.g., Jesus as savior; “alcoholic” as definition of self) and you’re in.
2) Stop believing in “the program” (e.g., The Holy Spirit — the most mystifying & least tangible aspect of the Christian triune God; the 12 steps — the most mystifying & least tangible aspect of AA) and you’re doomed
hmmm … .
Any and all responses are welcome. Have at it kids.
–Speedy
Stinkin' Thinkin' 
May 5, 2009 at 12:55 pm
Bill Stole from the best.
May 5, 2009 at 5:47 pm
I was admonished by a stepper not to quote from the 12×12 because that was only meant for long time members, and most people don’t even read that, and it would scare the newbies away, and, by the way, what are my sinsiter motives for quoting from that, anyway?
May 5, 2009 at 6:12 pm
the wheels on the bus go ’round & ’round …
May 6, 2009 at 6:33 pm
Those threats by AA are mere imprecations. Imprecations without the means to carry out.
They are, in fact, a primitive sales pitch.
May 26, 2009 at 6:16 am
He who thinks that “threats” by Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc. misjudges the power which some ten million dollars in annual income, plus a fleet of lawyers, plus an increasing determination to sue, admonish, and send investigating representatives wield. It is documented by the litigation in which A.A. engages. However, the real cause is that of the many (tens of thousands) Christians in A.A. today who are awash in a sea of idolatry, secularism, and religious criticism. That’s not the original program of Alcoholics Anonymous founded on June 10, 1935 by Dr. Bob and Bill. And it need not be the approach of self-appointed controllers who cannot and do not speak for the individual members or groups or conferences. But speak they do, and litigate they do. However, the power and love and guidance of God are the answer to the problems, as the founders themselves said.
May 26, 2009 at 9:33 am
Hi, Dick.
I’m happy to see your comment. Your information has been a great resource for me in doing research on AA history, and you are where I most often turn to first.
I think this comment helps to illustrate the point that there really is no AA. The “self-appointed controllers” don’t speak for individual groups or members, other individuals or groups don’t speak for you, and you don’t speak for individual groups.
December 28, 2009 at 4:30 am
Seems like you subscribe to “Wherefore he saitth, awake thou that sleepest, and Christ shall give thee light.” Won’t it be a great day when John and the viewers decide to seek God and His righteousness first and get the wisdom that God can impart, instead of grinding away in the service of some aberrational theory of what a verse or two mean to those who study God’s Word in its entirety.
June 16, 2009 at 12:05 am
AA teaches the members they can have a relationship with God in the spirit without Jesus Christ. The name Jesus is never mentioned in the Big Book. Jesus said, I am The Way the Truth and The Life, NO MAN comes to the Father unless he comes through me. Jesus is the only provision God has made to deal with man’s sin including drunkeness.. The Word of God teaches man can only be changed by the “New Birth, repentance from sin, faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross and the indwelling Holy Sipirts power. AA in stark contrast teaches a mans life can be changed radically by following these “few simple steps” none of which speak of the New Birth, faith in Christ’s redemptive work or repentance from sin. Draw your own conclusions you Christans who encourage and support AA. AA is man’s philosophy offered in place of God’s clearly revealed word. It is in that sense antichrist. It is presented in place of Christ.
June 28, 2009 at 6:01 pm
This explanation is just what I was looking for!!!!!! Amen!!!! Thank You Jerry!
September 24, 2009 at 4:35 pm
jerry,
being a hardcore naturalist, i have no dog in this fight at all.
but saying, “The name Jesus is never mentioned in the Big Book.” — while technically true — is more than a little disingenuous. “Christ” is directly mentioned in “Bill’s Story” & that word (as well as “Christian” and other variations on the word) pop up throughout the book.
contemporary AA’s & some of the founding members may have tap-danced around the “Christian” question, but the book is rife with protestant apology & new testament imagery. it’s just really badly written & deliberately cloaked so as not to offend early roman catholic members.
thanks,
speedy
July 2, 2009 at 12:54 am
The big book does in fact talk about being reborn. A play on words meaning “born again”. Confession is in step 5 and resititution is in step 9 both with repentance. Bill W, before the BB was written used the Bible. The meetings consisted of prayer time, quiet time and more prayer time.
The success rate in Akron and Cleveland was 75 – 93%. After visiting the drunks in the hospital and sharing testimonies, he would leave the BIBLE return in 2-3 days and ask if they accepted Jesus as Savior.
September 24, 2009 at 5:10 pm
I believe that the success rate according to AA about AA was determined by 2 qualifiers,
1. The ones who really tried
2. Thoroughly followed our path.
The big book states that it had a 75% success rate of the people who stayed when the book first came to print. However, many of those left AA relapsed and died.
AA put out a book called Experience, Strength, and Hope, which contains stories from the first 3 editions which are not in the fourth edition of the Big Book.
It is my belief that all of these stories are from people who either relapsed, or have publicly criticized Bill Wilson.
July 18, 2009 at 10:03 pm
If a person says we are looking at a chocolate cake, then we are looking at the end result of those ingredients being mixed and cooked.
The problem with author Dick B.s “Christian roots” claim is that so many things went into the “cake” that is A.A. Ingredients include: The New Thought religious philosophy of Emmet Fox; the swiss cheese theology of the Oxford Group; the influence of Emanuel Swedenborg on Bill Wilson, among other things.
Add to this the fact that many people get so mistreated in A.A., so force fed the “higher power” that many see Christians through the 12 Step lense by which they were tortured.
It isn’t Christian; never was Christian; isn’t all that effective; never was that effective. Someday, somewhere, maybe someone will really expose the religious/emotional abuse that takes place in A.A.
That is what is needed. As M.A. and countless others know, it isn’t easy going against the state-approved juggernaut of the Alcoholics Anonymous religion.
John
January 1, 2010 at 11:02 pm
Being convinced of this very thing that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ. Walking in love means walking in the love of God, not yielding to the accusations and condemnations that are ever flowing from the Adversary.
August 19, 2009 at 1:12 pm
AA assists my desire and effort to not drink or drug one day at a time. But it is God The Father, Christ Jesus and The Holy spirit who get all the credit. Going on 4 years sober, it was never AA, but Christ and asking for help from The Holy Spirit that empowers me to live in The Light of The Spirit of God. Sobriety is much more than just not drinking. It is also giving thanks and praise for the changes and the journey to Christ. I trust The Holy Trinity does not want me to drink today…that’s good enough for me.
I can do all Things through Christ who strenghtens me
September 23, 2009 at 11:29 pm
Both Jerry Schweitzer and James Michael have great arguments. I also think these arguments are the best that either side has to offer.
The anti-AA christian extremist would suggest turning to scripture for all things. All things would then include whatever a board of elders decide it should include (manic depression, schizophrenia, depression, counseling). I believe they would be mostly right with the exception of the latter in parenthesis. The fruit would be a more intimate unity with the body, study and memorization of scripture and effective evangelism. As a reformed christian I desire all these things. However the evangelical christian also has a tendency to provide answers for things in scripture that are not so easily answered if even answerable.
As an alcoholic I desire the daily reprieve that James Michael mentioned. Am I predisposed to the alcoholic types of sin (lust, sensuality, passion, drunkenness) or is there a genetic factor that separates me as an alcoholic from my non-alcoholic Christian brother’s.
It is true that no one understands parts of my heart like an alcoholic brother but no one understands the more important eternal things in my heart better than a Christian brother.
A solid argument that has been given to me: AA is contrary to scripture. Indeed it is. However, the church body is also imperfect and fallible and therefore cannot be relied on more than Christ..
The foundation of my sobriety has lied in meetings.
The argument: can I daily volunteer at a christian shelter or ministry whose purpose is to spread the Gospel through it’s service or am I dependent upon AA meetings and service for sobriety.
I chose yesterday to start diligently seeking the Lord for the answer to these questions and I am seeking through prayer looking to his words for the answer.
Can I have both? I do not believe this is an easy question to answer.
January 1, 2010 at 11:12 pm
What is this “A.A.” that is allegedly contrary to Scripture. Is it a meeting? Is it a group? Is it a conference? Is it a sponsor? Is it a newcomer drunk? Is it an angry or disappointed old timer? Is it a fellowship that didn’t come from origins in the rescue missions, revivals, YMCA, Salvation Army, Christian Endeavor, and the evangelists? Is it to be measured by the excellent training Dr. Bob received as a born again Christian in St. Johnsbury, Vermont? Is it to be measured by the decision for Christ that Bill Wilson made at the altar at Calvary Rescue Mission? Is it to be defined by those who think it is a cult, a not-god outfit, a congregation of misfits who can never achieve eternal life through Jesus Christ?
Those who are wondering need to ask just which person in A.A., which phase of A.A., which Christian Fellowship meeting of early A.A., which stockholder in Works Publishing Company, which unselfish sponsor, which shaking drunk, and which presumptuous observer is somehow characteristic of a widely diverse world-wide group of about two million drunks passing through.
Those who are wondering need to talk to the tens of thousands of born again Christians who have been delivered from the power of darkness and translated into the kingdom of God’s dear Son, all the time mindful that they don’t want to return to the gutter, they don’t want to embrace intolerance and revenge for past resentments still boiling, and they have no problem reading the Bible, asking for God’s help and guidance in the name of Jesus Christ, and loving others who are in need.
January 1, 2010 at 11:55 pm
I would suggest that steppism begins its ascent into proper heresy with the third step. Nowhere in the NT does a formula for salvation include turning one’s will life over to the care of whatever Power one chooses. It then continues with the fifth, sixth, seventh and eleventh, for similar reasons. The Christian formula of salvation is specific, and articulated, and makes absolutely no allowances for Wakantanka, Adonai, Allah, Doorknob, or anything else. The way to the Father is through the Son, without consideration for the removal of character defects or praying only for the knowledge of the will of say, Satan, or the Easter Bunny, both of which are perfectly tolerable within the religion of steppism.
September 23, 2009 at 11:34 pm
Another serious argument, not easily answered argument Spiritual experience versus The bible. This is a main division. AA and the big book would suggest that spiritual experience is the foundation and aim. Christianity and the bible offer God’s word that states it is “living and active, sharper than any double-edge sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.” Hebrews 4:12
December 28, 2009 at 7:55 am
micah,
not gonna try to pull your chain here — although i would say that both books of the ‘Bible’ are infinitely more formidable works than the big book, bill w. & company robbed from the best. the big book is the ‘Bible’ for people who not only couldn’t be bothered to read the ‘Bible’, it’s for people who couldn’t be bothered to read the big book, either.
they just need some text to point to & say, “see? it says it right in the book.”
12X12 isn’t ‘spiritual’ — it’s stupid. like, “family circus” stupid. it is — by far — the dumbest piece of literature to have seen publication in the 20th century, if not since the invention of the printing press.
there is no ‘spirituality’ in the big book or 12X12. there is mumbo-jumbo — whatever s**t stuck to the wall at the moment. moses leading his people out of bondage & into the promised land; jesus giving his mortal life on the cross only to be resurrected three days later so that the ‘original’ sins of mankind might be forgiven. now, that’s some compelling mythology — something to hang your ‘spiritual’ hat on.
a wall street wheeler-dealer tripping his balls off & ‘experiencing’ some amorphous version of god — and even then still looking for a good stiff drink until he’s hooked up with a drunken proctologist in ohio after a failed take-over bid is hardly the stuff that faiths (however non-denominational) are built upon.
it’s just … dumb. that’s why it doesn’t work for the vast majority of people who give it everything they’ve got. 12X12 is an empty suit. when you point that out, guys like dick b. (below) try to pull out the new testament to add a bit of “oomph” to the package.
i got to my atheism the hard way (actually studying a plethora of sacred texts), but i’m happy as hell to be where i am now. don’t really give a f**k if people if consider me a real alcoholic or not & certainly don’t give a f**k if they’re offended by my take on the big book (or bible, or haddith, or vedas, or b’hai texts, or tibetan book of the dead).
there’s a great deal i don’t know. but as the great theologian dietrich boenhoffer wrote (paraphrasing) ‘ascribing the answer to [g]od & offering that as a point of terminus is an abdication of the spirit’s repsonsibility.’ (argument against the ‘god of the gaps’.)
i don’t know that it’s god’s word that pierces to the root of one’s humanity like a “double-edged sword” (not really all that prominent in 1500 BC, btw). i do know that self-knowledge of one’s own misdeeds, shortcomings, vanities, or even triumphs can be piercing, indeed.
have a material experience that brings you to the fault-line between life & death. then you’ll know ‘spirit’.
speedy
December 28, 2009 at 4:38 am
Early A.A.’s regularly studied the Book of James, along with many other subjects and segments in the Bible. Two or three of the commentators have grasped the point made in James: If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God who giveth to all men liberally and upbraideth not. Some commentators have observed that if one wants to truth and if one has the gift of the Holy Spirit, he is not trying to opine as a natural man, but rather learn spiritual matters through the spirit of Christ. And the more John cranks away at A.A., the more I wonder whether he seeks as a child of God or just blathers away as a natural man would–lacking the ability to discern the difference.
December 29, 2009 at 2:15 am
It never ceases to amaze me how the quality of being to ingest, parrot, and editorialize dogma, whatever the bent, is confused with wisdom. The idea that God”giveth liberally to all men”, for example, while lofty and idealistic, has no pragmatic basis upon which an objective person can wrap his head around.
December 31, 2009 at 11:00 pm
Amen. I’m finding this to be a really tiresome aspect of AA…I wish people would stop trying to remake it in a way that fits agendas other than keeping people sober.
December 28, 2009 at 6:06 am
dick,
“subjects and segments in the Bible”? we can’t even get chapter & verse from a ‘white man speaks with forked tongue’ true believer like yourself?
very poor showing, old boy.
btw, exactly which version of the ‘Bible’ are we addressing ourselves to here? the vulgate latin, the septuagint or orthodox greek, the king james version, the new international translation … i could go on & on. you see these points become important when comparing & contrasting the epistles of paul alongside james — in their original greek. the power struggles within the early ‘jesus movement’ or, better, … cult (a time when ‘christian’ [or ‘jesus jews’] celebrations differ very, very little from run-of-the-mill roman mystery religions & when diplomacy versus all-out revolt against roman occupiers of judea was a pretty hot topic).
and when you compare those ontological treatises to the outright horses**t that is A of A’s big book, you’re kind of left wondering why you even started down that road in the first place. christian 12X12 is a non-starter, baby. and your ‘child of [g]od’ versus ‘natural man’ apposition was dead in the water when newton was writing about the luminiferous ether.
it’s all just week-old gumbo, lacking in intellectual, theological, or philosophical rigor. you just make it up as you go along, stamp “Approved by Jesus Christ & Dr. Bob” & see how many nitwits bite.
you must’ve been an unbearable drunk, because sober you’re a pretty insufferable blowhard.
hope the holy spirit left lots of ‘gifts’ for you this X-mas [/ouch!],
speedy
holy spirit-free & natural as they come
January 1, 2010 at 11:23 pm
Whoever this angry “speedy” is, the best way to find the verses he or she seeks is to start by asking in the name of Jesus Christ what God wants Him to read, to learn, and to say to those who are reading the comments. One interesting starting point, which was regular reading for early AAs is The Runner’s Bible. If “speedy” wants verses on every important point concerning God, Jesus Christ, the Word, healing, guidance, forgiveness, love, salvation, the new birth, and believing, that’s a good place to plant one’s feet. And then to get into the facts, instead of the wild conjecture about A.A. Thus–to see how frequently Dr. Bob quoted the Bible, how frequently Anne Smith quoted the Bible, how frequently she wrote about studying the Gospels, the Book of Acts, the writings of Paul, the verses from Peter and James, the verses in 1 John and 3 John, as well as Psalms, Proverbs, and Revelation. Those want truth have to look for it instead of manufacturing it. And it doesn’t bother most of us one bit that some angry soul wishes us foul “gifts” from the wrong “god of this world.” The real gift was the gift of the Holy Spirit that Jesus Christ made available to all who go with Romans 10:9.
January 2, 2010 at 12:02 am
Lots of angry folks outside the domain of steppism. Your incantation for seeking God’s will is very reminiscent of the spook sessions and automatic writing of Wilson and co. How frequently someone quotes the bible, or which parts they quote, doesn’t lend credibility to their arguments, particularly in an audience of non- or ex-Christians.
December 28, 2009 at 1:02 pm
Many people do not seem to be satisfied with “I don’t know” as a reponse to these spirtual [ for want of a better word] questions. So, we have notions such as astrology theosophy, 12 step. Even more nuanced syatems, such as Christainity and Judaism, have proof issues.
There is no proof that any particular answer is true and accurate. There are answers that people live with for a time. Classical greco/Roman religion is an example; although parts of the philosophy are merged into Christianity.
12 step is not sophisticated at all. That is one reason we have Dick B.
December 28, 2009 at 4:20 pm
Isn’t AA full of heretics and blasphemers who worship the idol knob while they defer to the wisdom of Bill Wilson, religious cult leader?
January 1, 2010 at 11:30 pm
As 2010 offers even greater opportunities to love and serve God and His Son Jesus Christ, why not end the efforts to paint every drunk who ventures into A.A. with the absurd comments found here and there about an higher power which can be a light bub, a chair, a table, a radiator, something, somebody, or Gertrude.
I’ve read the comments and heard the comments, but I usually invite the commentator to get off his chair and on his knees and piously ask the chair just what the chair woud have him do. I did this with a physician at the VA who remarked that a “higher power” coud be a chair. When I asked him to join me in prayer to the chair, he said, “That’s ridiculous.” I rest my case. And sure hope the writers find a real challenge in helping the afflicted this coming year who really want God’s help–whether they are in prison, in a homeless tent, in a hospital, in A.A., in N.A., in Celebrate Recovery, in Overcomers Outreach, in a church, or in despair.
January 2, 2010 at 12:06 am
Sorry, Dick, but when the sacred dogma says that God can be anything the practitioner understands it to be, the chair, doorknob, Mephisto, and John Kennedy all get equal credibility at the prayer meeting. The text of the bigbook says exactly that, in many different places.
February 4, 2010 at 10:36 pm
Not sure just what meetings “blame guy” aka John attended if he ever did. But I wonder how many times he saw a group praying to a door knob, a light bulb, a radiator, or John F. Kennedy. I doubt very much that he ever saw an AA trying to get help by prayer to Gertrude. At least I have been to thousands of meetings and not had that experience. See Dick B., God and Alcoholism. http://www.dickb.com/titles.shtml
February 5, 2010 at 2:05 pm
I have been to about four thousand meetings in lots of different places, since 1981. The hand-holding public displays of prayerful piety at the end of most meetings aren’t indicative of what entity the individual members pay (or don’t pay) homage to, but rather a repetitive ritual. While my examples struck the Dick guy as ridiculous, they are valid. I have heard lengthy, if unconvincing testimonials from respected members regarding the virtues of the WalMart sign as one’s hp, all perfectly valid in the “as we understood” inclusivism of AA theology. Mike B.
January 28, 2010 at 2:31 am
I wonder where the blame guy finds in the Big Book that a higher power, a power greater than ourselves, a higher power, God, or the Creator can be a door knob, a light bulb, Gertrude, Ralph, the Big Dipper, or Somebody. Chapter and verse please. There are those in 12 Step fellowships who think you can start out with Ralph or Somebody. They are right. You can also start out with Almighty God. They too are right. Today there is no rule against Ralph or Almighty God. A.A. has changed–since the 1939 compromise. But as long as folks throw stones, it will be difficult for any of us to help the alcoholic who still suffers–the objective most of us share.
February 4, 2010 at 9:21 pm
That one is easy, Dick. The proviso “as we understood him” lets everything ride, from Baruch atah Adonai to Allahu akhbar to Hail, Satan. In trying to be all things to all people, the theology of the 12-stepmovement becomes a muddled mess of incomprehensible self-contradictions. Pray only for knowledge of His will and the power to carry it out, but go ahead and admire the St. Francis prayer because good AAers know that it so clearly defines that will. Ask God to remove these defects of characther, but don’t believe that he will actually do it beyond granting a daily reprieve.
My objective has always been to help the alcoholic who still suffers, but also to help the ex-AA who emerged from the church basement much the worse for wear, the one AA wrote off as soon as dishonest, unwilling, unready, or not really an alcoholic in the first place.
February 4, 2010 at 10:32 pm
“The Lord has cured me of this terrible disease, and I just want to keep talking about it and telling people.” Blll Wilson’s statement in “Alcoholics Anonymous,” 4th ed., page 191.
“Your Heavenly Father will never let you down!” Dr. Bob Smith’s statement in “Alcoholics Anoymous,” 4th ed., page 181.
See Dick B., Cured! Proven Help for Alcoholics and Addicts. http://www.dickb.com/cured.shtml; The Good Book and The Big Book: A.A.’s Roots in the Bible. http://www.dickb.com/goodbook.shtml
February 5, 2010 at 1:43 pm
The Dickperson and I are in complete agreement on the evangelical origins of AA. I’m not sure what point you are trying to make with repeated quotes and footnotes, but I noticed the links keep going back to his sites. Fair enough, since he likes to quote Bill and post links. Not one of our more popular vids, but I like it. Mike B.
http://www.youtube.com/user/blamethenile#p/a/u/0/eXoXK9lC2RI
February 4, 2010 at 10:07 pm
Once again, the “blame guy” aka John has failed to do his homework, has failed to document his argument, and is just plain wrong. The phrase “as we understood Him” came in all probability from the writings of Rev Samuel M. Shoemaker, Jr. in the 1920’s and many times thereafter. Shoemaker was the Episcopal rector whom Bill Wilson called a cofounder of A.A. Shoemaker was known as a “Bible Christian” and wrote extensively about the new birth, conversion, and Jesus Christ. He never shirked at calling God “God.” He didn’t even any lightbulbs, doorknobs, radiators, or rainbow gods. In fact, he even chastized those he did in one of his two major addresses to AAs at their International Converntions in 1955 and 1960. See New Light on Alcoholism: God, Sam Shoemaker, and A.A. http://www.dickb.com/newlight.shtml. In the 1920’s–before A.A. was even a thought–Sam wrote in Children of the Second Birth suggesting that one surrender as much of himself as he understands to as much of God as he understands. It was repeated by Ebby Thacher to Bill in 1934. This theme was repeated by Dr. Bob’s wife Anne. The idea was supposedly founded on John 7:17. Did it open a door? Yes, said Bill. And this “compromise” was done, as the Big Book went to press, and was done to placate atheists and agnostics. Did that meet with the approval, needs, and beliefs of the many born again Christians to whom it was tendered? You’d have to ask them. Did that alter one whit the early A.A. Christian Fellowship program which came from a great emphasis on the study of the Bible–particularly the Book of James, Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount, and 1 Corinthians 13. In fact, Dr. Bob mentioned both of these factors in his last major address to AAs. He also said he did not write the Twelve Steps and had nothing to do with the writing of them. He said the basic ideas—basic ideas—came from the early A.A. study and effort in the Bible. The “blame guy” has never indicated he knows what the early Akron program was–even though it is available in writing in the Rockefeller Archives in New York, in many of my books, and even in A.A.’s DR BOB and the Good Oldtimers. Instead of quoting the original program, the “blame guy” dotes on spiritualism, which has absolutely nothing to do with the original program or the Twelve Steps. The “blame guy” has much to learn, but it seems unlikely he will ever repeat the facts even after he has taken the time to research them. And by the way, my books–all 39 of them–are filled with footnotes, accurate quotes, and references to manuscripts that back up the simple points here made. See http://www.dickb.com/titles.shtml. So begins 2010. God Bless, Dick B.
February 5, 2010 at 1:21 pm
I’m not disagreeing with the dickguy’s treatises on the bases of the 12-step religion whatsoever. What documentation to my argument are you looking for? The argument is, that in the worship of the AA god, that god can assume any character the worshiper cares to attribute. I see and hear it in AA meetings all the time. Dickperson can research, write, speak and define all he likes, in today’s church of steppism, God is defined by each individual member of the congretation to that individual’s tastes and likings. I would LOVE for AA to admit itself a Chrstian-based quit drinking program, and adhere to that theology, so those not so inclined won’t have to waste their time being subjected to conversion attempts to a religion to which they don’t care to be a part of. Instead, it tries to be all things to all people, content with the direct marketing success rates it achieves in its recruitment efforts year after year.
I’m not aka anyone. Mike B.
February 4, 2010 at 10:27 pm
‘That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation” Romans 10:9-10.
See Dick B. “The Golden Text of A.A.” http://www.dickb.com/goldentext.shtml.
February 5, 2010 at 4:49 pm
So Dick,
Do you believe that atheist and agnostics are helped by AA or is conversion a requirement?
February 24, 2010 at 7:45 am
ray,
this non-angry dickguy doesn’t even believe in a mortal incarnation of jesus (the letters of paul never address the figure of jesus as physically interacting with the material world). see: http://www.dickb.com/titles/i_wouldn't_know_aramaic_from_really_bad_greek_translations_of_dubious_sources_to_begin_with for a more detailed discussion of bob smith’s direct lineage to the deeply disturbed & wildly divergent from the synoptic gospels epistle author.
and, as you know, there are no ‘requirements’ in a-of-a — just really spiritual, totally loving threats of agonizing, humiliating death & implications of eternal damnation. any atheist or agnostic who can’t keep an open mind on that eventuality should do a good, close reading of the revelation of st. john which concludes the new testament. (or at leas it has since its inclusion in the canon following the council of trent.)
speedy
http://www.dickb.com/that_religious_text_i'm_always_referring_to_but_actually_know_so_little_about
February 5, 2010 at 1:27 pm
“Tuwa igluhukulyakel wacekiya cana he kin taho kin mahpiya kin kahloke.” The voice of he who prays humbly pierces the heavens… Mike B.
March 12, 2010 at 11:28 pm
There is no damnation is AA. Now the whole math is messed up because someone forgot to ‘carry’ the ‘Love’. Get it?
AA has no Theosophy.
One may condemn Bill Wilson, Dr. Bob Smith, Carl Jung, William James, and Emmanuel Swedenborg if you like for heresies committed. Its all conjecture unless you know their current address. Only God knows the effect of those mentioned heresies on the whole of AA: you can only speculate. AA will not prevent anyone from being Christian and AA will not demand that anyone commit heresy. AA will not stop anyone from committing heresy because AA is a program of sobriety.
People in AA do not believe that AA has anything to do with Christianity other than the generic link described in other posts, even though there are many Christians involved. People in AA do not believe AA will get them to salvation. AA people do not think AA is a religion despite the fact that human law defines AA as a religion (most thinking people know that human law is not the same as Divine Law.) People in AA believe that AA is a program of sobriety, generically spiritual in nature, that works well, not a program of salvation subject to heresy, even though heresies occur among the individual members.
A good oncologist will not ask you to commit heresy or prevent you from committing heresy but he may be well advised to ask you to pray or meditate in your own fashion, (A) because it works, and (B) because his PRIMARY PURPOSE is the treatment of cancer. If his patient achieves (or receives) remission from the disease, the good doctor may evangelize the patient. If a pagan seeks the wisdom of the oncologist would the doctor be a heretic? AA, the oncologist and Baskin-Robins are markets open to consumers. AA gives their stuff away for free.
Elliot Miller writes: “ ‘All truth is God’s truth.’ So the saying goes. And although recent applications of the dictum have generated some controversy, it remains in principle a logical necessity. If a non-Christian scientist or philosopher discovers something that is objectively true, and the teachings of Scripture are also objectively true, then those truths must somehow exist harmoniously. And we can rightfully attempt to harmonize them conceptually as well.
The Christian is called to an uncompromising commitment to truth (2 Cor. 4:2; Eph. 6:14; Prov. 23:22; etc.). Such a commitment cannot condone a cursory and simplistic dismissal of entire systems of thought, even if those systems arise from unchristian sources. New ideologies are not born in a vacuum—they grow out of social and individual needs that are at times legitimate, and they likely contain elements of truth; truth which partly accounts for their powers of attraction.”1
What would you have the founders of AA do? Insist upon Christian values and principles and watch atheists and agnostics die? These are the poor we are supposed to feed. These are the wretched we are supposed to evangelize. These are the people you are supposed to be helping directly or indirectly, by your posts. “As ye have done to the least of these….”
Now there are weird people in AA who might ask you to believe in one thing or another. And there are some intolerant and judgmental and unloving people amongst the authentic Church. Satan will occupy a seat in AA just as he occupies a pew in your Church. He works hardest on the battle front to ‘save’ souls from getting saved to Christ. I no longer judge Christ by the behavior or views of some of His people.
The essentials of salvation.
There are things one must think and believe in order to receive salvation. I have been taught that the redeeming blood of Jesus Christ will impart salvation to me and cover sins. His Love saves me from my errors, sins, heresies, mistakes. There are no perfect people: “no, not one….”
The problem with this post:
1) This post is all about the problem and contains no solution. If someone were to read this and leave AA, this post refers him to the word “salvation”. They need more than that.
2) The author wants to fix the world. My Bible says that it is a fallen world occupied with fallen people and run by a fallen angel. The author seems more concerned with condemnation than humility. There is no reason why a man cannot point out problems, offer solutions and do it with Love. There sure are a lot of folks intent on the destruction of anything that contains sin, even though the whole world contains sin. If God wanted to destroy sin he would nave it done by now. God wants to save people not putting sin down, but by pulling people up. Its all about people.
Now a man can steer people away from demons but he should not forget to bring them to Christ.
I understand and applaud your pursuits against heresy. However, you have failed to consider the benefit to Christ Himself that AA provides simply because you do not understand it. Some of the unsaved “little ones” will err unto death rather than approach a misunderstood authentic Church with its symbols and systems of religion. They have been prejudiced: sometimes by versions of the church itself. The Good Doctor will save them from death and then save them from hell, because if they die, Christ has lost them. There is no way to lose the elect. Think of AA as a half-way house.
1. A Critique of New Age Ideology – DN061 – Elliot Miller
March 13, 2010 at 11:40 am
dave,
thanks for forwarding the reader’s digest copy of your seminary school dissertation.
the problem with your assertion of “the problem with this post”:
1) “This post is all about the problem and contains no solution.” is so tired, cliched, & weak a response that it’s laughable. even if it genuinely portrayed a flaw in the original post — which it doesn’t — the point is irrelevant. insolubility does not preclude rigorous presentation & investigation of a ‘problem’ (next toilet break take goedel’s theorem in with you instead of the kjv new testament). the parent post presents an analogy, suggests a parallel & then invites commentary. period. there is no “problem” explicitly or implicitly detailed.
2)”The author wants to fix the world.” that’s a rather grandiose psychological assessment based on the contents of … a blog post. you obviously haven’t read much of my work or commentary on this blog. while you may have a text-book freudian anal-retentive need for universal order & sensibility, my ambitions don’t extend much beyond getting a good, comfortable job & enjoying my very tenuous though often quite enjoyable human existence … sans the covert religiosity of the theologically-retarded a-of-a AND the overt silliness of modern ‘christianity’. when you’ve actually read aquinas (never mind dionysius or any of the early greek christian mystics) perhaps we’ll exchange notes again.
but don’t hold your breath.
fixing myself in front of the tube,
speedy
March 13, 2010 at 12:27 pm
speedy
Thanks for the reply. Be advised that I did not write for you. Your hostile reply indicates that you take things personally and I’m OK with that. You are obviously very educated and very proud of it and I have no illusions about trying to change your mind or your attitude.
I wrote for your readers. They are the judges of us. In order for them to make an informed decision about the topic they need to see words that represent views. And they need to see the words you use to express how you feel about opposing views. The readers are smart enough to see through the smoke of big words and bad justifications, whether they’re yours or mine.
March 13, 2010 at 12:38 pm
And another thing:
You brought up salvation and damnation so don’t get snippy on me for responding…
March 16, 2010 at 12:02 am
dave,
sucks getting your ass kicked so thoroughly online, doesn’t it?
4 out of 5 readers agree,
speedy
October 15, 2011 at 5:00 pm
Healing Verses…
[…]Salvation & Damnation: Christianity vs AA « Stinkin' Thinkin'[…]…
October 20, 2011 at 7:30 am
Speedy – I am afraid that I have to tell you that if 4 out of 5 readers agree, they can still be wrong,
From the extensive references you make to the 1st and 2nd century writers, and the strange conclusions you draw from them, it seems to me that you may have been educated beyond your intelligence, I do wonder if you have actually ready any of them in depth, or are just picking up extracts by other writers. Maybe you really do have a PhD in the Classics.
Whatever its faults – and I am sure there are many – Christianity preaches love – a concept that seems to have escaped you. You are downright insulting in many of your posts and if that is what your atheism brings to the table I pity you.
Mark
October 28, 2011 at 10:02 am
Broad is the path that leads to destruction.God is not a generic God,nor is he illusory or an illusion of the mind.He has these peaple that know his voice,& they come to him.theseare his elect or his sheep.the others, the goats, they are not drawn or maybe they were before but choose to reject his call.